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Back Stab Discussion

#1
So when I found out about back stab and read the description I was super excited. I was going to make a pure back stab build kinda like an all out 1 shot assassin build but after getting stealth to 100 I was thoroughly disappointed by the back stab mechanic and the build was a complete bust.

The idea behind the build was take advantage of the massive back stab damage boost to increase your bleed damage with swordman special and then add poison on top of that to basically kill things in 1 back stab or maybe 2.

Swordmanship/tactic/hiding/stealth/poison/taste id/arms lore

Sword/tactic for more dmage, hiding/stealth for back stab, poison/taste id for poison, and arms lore for extra special chance because we kinda depending on the sword speical trigger. So back stab give 25% to special so with arms and sword that's 45% chance to trigger.

So here come the issue, while the backstab damage is nice bleed is cap by only 33% of backstab damage. This the bleed almost EXACTLY the same as a normal special attack since a special attack normally does about 1/3 of a backstab damage. What we're left with is a build that does a nice chunk at the start and than nothing. As of now backstab is pretty much worthless as the time it takes to set up a backstab everyone else just do that much damage or more normally.

You have to be in hiding for 10s to enter stealth for back stab. then you have to move into position which is about another 10-20s depending on location. Then you backstab (assuming you don't miss) you do like 1/2 of a lich's hp. Then you have to run away enough to re-hide, wait 10s to stealth and walk back to try again. The time to do all of this any other character would had just killed it normally making back stab basically a pointless mechanic as there no good reason to ever use it.

Now what I like to propose is to make bleed scale off the entire backstab damage. If I back stab for 210 then the bleed should be bleeding 42hp 5 times. Not mere 14hp 5 times (the current calculation) The trigger on special is only at 45% so its still really iffy build in term of if you can 1 shot something. Then with poison maxed as well it would actually be a viable build for a sneaky 1 hit assassin pve build. Like even with this chance its still not that great of a build due to heavy investment cost but at least it would be a viable build if you want to try that style.

Now a buff to back stab damage itself would be a nice change as well and make it much stronger than relying on the swordmanship special trigger but right now its just so useless.
 
#2
I think with backstab it is a bit of a slipper slope; it's an incredibly cool idea but can be pretty unhealthy for the game if the numbers aren't right. It might be that you maybe have to strike once, run and then backstab again (im not sure if theres a minimum cd) because you certainly cant just go around one shotting mobs because the effeciency of that is nuts. If I could guess, the damage would have to be wildly inconsistent in order for you to get really lucky and one shot a few times. I know shadow aspect gear supplements with that so maybe this is just a end game type of build?
Could there be some number tweaking? possibly, i haven't even looked or tried anything in the beta but i know killing things instantly isn't something that should happen too often so.
 
#3
I think with backstab it is a bit of a slipper slope; it's an incredibly cool idea but can be pretty unhealthy for the game if the numbers aren't right. It might be that you maybe have to strike once, run and then backstab again (im not sure if theres a minimum cd) because you certainly cant just go around one shotting mobs because the effeciency of that is nuts. If I could guess, the damage would have to be wildly inconsistent in order for you to get really lucky and one shot a few times. I know shadow aspect gear supplements with that so maybe this is just a end game type of build?
Could there be some number tweaking? possibly, i haven't even looked or tried anything in the beta but i know killing things instantly isn't something that should happen too often so.
The thing is setting up a back stab take so long that even if you're 1 shotting it won't be that OP. And at least change I want (bleed 100% of backstab damage) you still won't be 1 shotting any of the harder mobs easily. First you have to hope the 45% (which feel lot lower) special trigger and even then its 30s of set up for a 200 back stab with 200 total bleed. Which won't even kill the stronger mobs which means you have to run away and set up again. Also remember this build is useless in PvP due to none of the back stab bonus apply in PvP. So its already super specialized to do one thing and it sucks at it lol.

Its more effort and time to set up for an instant kill than say a peacer who kills at the same speed or faster without all this effort.
 
#4
I don't know the fix, nor will i ever play a rogue/backstab type character, but after reading the thorough description of how it works, i tend to agree with Rex that it's overwhelming, and disappointing that the bleed on a gash that you've opened up in a huge way with massive damage, is so minimal. I also don't know how the template scales with the end game armor, I believe it has a chance to put you back into stealth, which would be pretty cool... But with all the setup required to make a backstab happen, I'd have thought it should be more powerful...

I see bards running around peacing mobs, and whacking them to death, and tamers/summoners using pets to destroy mobs with little risk to themselves... And yet the guy who has to get up in the face of an infernal daemon, with a ton of risk, and backstab something, is pretty much pointless. Maybe an increase to the bleed damage, with a hard cooldown on how often you could backstab (30s?!?).. I dunno.. spitballing as I know nothing about the build..
 
#6
Tried the same thing in beta and was dissapointed. If you play swords for this, it is also way harder than going archery for example. And with archery the special hit is actually useful since it will paralyze = i.e. more free damage before you run and hide again.
 
#7
I found swords useless, since by the time O would position to attack they would move lol. archery is a bit nicer but you still kite.

I like the idea of removing the bleed cap. However alot of the time I just hide, it would be cool if stealthing in pvm was a passive backstab bonus when hidden:

a. hide ))) if target is in range and stealth over 80 you can backstab
- skip waiting 10 seconds for stealth to kick in

b. alternative: a 3 second hide to stealth cool down before you can stealth if both are over 80 and you are in pvm mode (13 seconds down from 20)

I also found the short range of crossbows odd whole stealthed.
 
#8
Ya trying to actually back stab with melee is insanely painful. You have to slowly walk next to the monster and make sure you don't accidentally walk on top of them and reveal yourself. Not to mention with low weapon skill you miss so this build is actually painful to train up too.

I do like the idea of lower stealth cooldown for pvm but issue with that is stealth is also so op in other areas idk if that's a good change. I'm ok with the set up time just need to make the pay off worth the set up.

I find it kinda insane you can back stab with range weapon? Wtf?
 
#9
I am ok with archer backstab since it is now allowed in dnd 3+. dnd 5 takes it a step further and lets you backstab if someone is engaged with the monster. that could be powerful in group play.

I love outlands so far its got great features, devs and support. I post alot of my thoughts here in the spirit and love for uo.

i like to see issues solved with more immersion, rp and things to do
 
#10
I think then its more of a sneak attack than back stab which is fine I guess, just would like to see buff to melee weapons or at least make the interplay between back stab and swordsman bleed better.
 
#11
even if you're 1 shotting it won't be that OP
Yes, it will. I don't see what could be more OP than consistenly 1-shotting higher-end mobs. You could run around virtually naked, except for your weapon, and farm mobs without much risk of getting PKed since you'd be hidden 95% of the time and able to escape PKs, should they happen to see your name blink on their screen for the 1 second period required to loot a mob after killing it. And even if you'd get PKed, you'd only lose your weapon and whichever loot you didn't bank. That's OPAF...

You can already 1-shot some mobs (on the weaker end of the spectrum, obviously) and farming those as a stealth is insanely OP as it is, if people could do the same with higher-end mobs, ~2 weeks after launch, it would be ridiculously OP. As someone mentioned, Shadow Aspect gear (end game PvE gear) does make the Backstab template a lot more powerful than it already is. It has an "enhanced" Backstab attack that is enabled when you get a "Vanish" proc from the gear. ie.: You basically can get in Stealth mode instantly while in combat and strike for 2k damage when it happens, which generally means an instant kill against anything that isn't a boss or paragon. Obviously, those procs are random and won't happen every fight, but still, I tested Stealth+Shadow Aspect (with Archery) a lot during beta and it was pretty decent (I can see how melee can make this a lot harder, both to walk up to the target and use the hit & run tactic).

Don't get me wrong, I agree that Stealth is flawed, to some extent, but I disagree that it should be a 1-shotting build without Shadow Aspect gear. Even if a Backstab attack "only" takes away 50% of your target's health, that's a pretty decent chunk of HP you don't have to deal with... No one says you have to, or should, run away, hide and finish the mob with another Backstab attack, which would take at least another 15s to set up, when you could just as well keep hitting that mob without reseting and kill it faster and more efficiently.

As I've suggested in the past, I could see a way to fix Stealth by simply reducing the timer between Hiding and Stealth, but only with GM Hiding and GM+ Stealthers. Reducing it to 10s at GM Hiding, then 9s at GM Stealth, 8s at 105, 7s at 110, 6s at 115 and 5s at 120 Stealth. It would only reduce downtime between kills and would be enough to make Stealth enjoyable, for me, without making it insanely powerful.

I also have no issues with Swords' special attack (bleed) hitting for the full 100% as was suggested, since that's damage over time, so not an instant kill and Swords is already underwhelming compared to the other Weapon skills. If anything, Backstab attacks with a poisoned weapon should also buff the Poison damage since it is also a DoT, wouldn't make things too OP and would make an "Assassin" template viable.
 
#12
My phrasing on the 1 shot was bad, I don't mean 1 shot as in the intital back stab damage but the damage + bleed(which is max 45% proc rate) + poison. I think backstab damage right now is fine, just make the bleed full and its a viable build with poison. Idk why you can't poison hally though coz you want a hally for this build.
 
#13
for melee the ai is so good here they tend to follow a long way (great) but may rubberband back in your 20sec+ of cooldowns .

a faster cooldown would help (so would hide only for backstab without needing to stealth or 3-5 sec cooldown).
 
#14
for melee the ai is so good here they tend to follow a long way (great) but may rubberband back in your 20sec+ of cooldowns .

a faster cooldown would help (so would hide only for backstab without needing to stealth or 3-5 sec cooldown).
What do you mean by follow a long way? IS there some way for your character to automatically walk to a target to attack? Right now I have been manually walking next to them and its a pain.
 
#15
slippery slope indeed, i soloed ancient wyrms on rel por with backstabs, on a naked char with just bandages and a weapon.
tried it again in outlnds beta and was actually glad it was fixed because i never want that stealth fest again.
 
#18
slippery slope but some simple quality of life buffs. Hide to stealth lowered from 10seconds(which is painfully boring and long) to 7seconds.

-enhanced special attacks for Melee weapons. I.e. a higher cap on bleed.

-and I don't know if this is in, but for poisoners, an Increase in poison chance/chance the poison isn't used up. plus an increase in poison level applied.
 
#19
slippery slope but some simple quality of life buffs. Hide to stealth lowered from 10seconds(which is painfully boring and long) to 7seconds.

-enhanced special attacks for Melee weapons. I.e. a higher cap on bleed.

-and I don't know if this is in, but for poisoners, an Increase in poison chance/chance the poison isn't used up. plus an increase in poison level applied.
I agree on increasing the damage is a slippery slope which I think its good now. Like you said quality of life stuff like faster stealth, bleed cap, and poison stuff. Also is poison only fencing or anything with blade? Coz can't poison hally.