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Murderers and Resurrection

#21
biorhythm said:
bob said:
Yeah actually i could see how even that could be exploited.  If i had 1k counts i could have a friend or an alternate char kill me, receive the bounty, and then give it back.   which means id essentially be paying only half the intended penalty AND resetting my counts.

I mean there are easy work arounds to this with a little critical thinking. 




It would be nice if there was some sort of mechanic in place to discourage pking noobs.   
Maybe if a players skills or stat totals are less than "x", then the PKer receives 3 counts instead of 1.
Perma-death for the PK would be sufficient... ;)
 
#22
Resetting murder counts to 5 after paying does seem unsound.

Also the 24 hour penalty is largely pointless since they'll just spread character's out across 3 accounts.

Penalties for being a murderer shouldn't be a slap on the wrist. This sort of punishment in society would be like fining a guy for killing some one. Even in a video game it should be more realistic than this is. Being red should be heinous and actually have real tangible downsides.
 
#23
Alcsaar said:
Resetting murder counts to 5 after paying does seem unsound.

Also the 24 hour penalty is largely pointless since they'll just spread character's out across 3 accounts.

Penalties for being a murderer shouldn't be a slap on the wrist.  This sort of punishment in society would be like fining a guy for killing some one.  Even in a video game it should be more realistic than this is.  Being red should be heinous and actually have real tangible downsides.
I was thinking this same thing, having been red and PKing folks for years, but I forgot some very important details in this system that will absolutely destroy murderers on Outlands:

Players die more than they realize. A lot more.

You may get back up, or recover your loot or kill the enemy and win the fight and not get statted, but you still died. And that means you still pay these consequences. If you're successfully killing players, you'll have 40-50 or more counts; when you die, even if it's to an NPC, you suffer the consequences. Gold isn't meant to be plentiful in the game, where 400 gold per count could easily end up being more than you ever earned from PKing the players during that run (ie, the kills you got since the last count wipe). From what I've seen, 400 gold is more akin to a grand on most servers, so think of it that way: 1,000 gold per count upon death.

The 24-hour ban basically means that whole account can't perform aggressive actions. I don't know if that means you cannot attack blues, or also includes things like participating in factions, healing factioners, etc., but that wipes that account out from participating. Keep in mind in major fights on busy nights, players will hotswap between 5-7 characters like it's nothing; that automatically means that hotswapping is out of the playbook if you choose that option. For the lone, solo PKer who casually murders folks, yeah, it's a slap on the wrist, but then again, they likely aren't butchering dozens of folks daily or even weekly.

Personally, I don't think anyone's gonna' take the 300 gold penalty, unless they wanna' hotswap to another character and not lose out on the extra coin per count, but that just means another opportunity to impose another gold sink on that red. It's a good way to bankrupt your characters on a rough night.

In the beginning, it'll be a significant deterrent for 90% of PKers. In another month, it'll be more balanced, as players will have farmers and income to handle the penalties. As time goes on and inflation occurs shardwide, I imagine that they will increase the penalties' costs. I get your concerns, 'cause they were mine as well, but I think that the prevalence of the penalties and the ease at which it can be applied will make them pretty punishing for the typical red shitter.
 
#24
I really like this. It addresses the player instead of the character, and with multiple characters penalties against a PK character were never really that meaningful.
How does option 2 or option 3 affect the player? I absolutely love the idea of punishing the player for his actions, and not just the character, as it stands professional PK's will likely have 10 different PK's, while option 1 would lock out their account, they'll never take it. Options 2 & 3 are a gold sink, so at some point that could get in the way of repeat killing, however, a 24 hour stat loss, the player will just jump on another character, and not use the statloss one until he's out of stat.. (it isn't actually clear if it's 24 hours in game). And option 3 truly has no penalties, other than gold..

Regardless of how hard it seems gold will be to find early on, people as creatures of habit will find the most efficient means possible of farming, and I don't think gold will be a hindrance to someone who wants to go the path of PK.

I'm all for pay more gold, receive lesser penalties, I just don't know that going down to zero penalties unless the gold sink is much higher, is the right way to do it.. At least it's a very easy system to tweak so from that perspective, so they can find the right balance in practice.
 
#25
How does option 2 or option 3 affect the player?
The "no offensive actions" I assume to mean attacking on that account. If you have more than one PK (maybe even thief, who knows) on that account, you've basically shut off that account for the night. The statloss/penalties option means you cannot operate efficiently, and if you keep killing and taking that option, it means you are unable to defend yourself or your allies effectively. Lastly, the gold sink is just painful; keep in mind a liche is like, 150-200 gold, maybe. Run around with 20 counts and that means having to replenish your gold by about 40-50 liches; farming newbies means having well above that 20 count mark, unless you're dying a lot (which obviously means you aren't that good at PKing, right?).

All three are going to mean the player has to either call it off for the night - and still pay - or pay double for their crimes. Remember that there is no "free option" here; you die, you lose gold, potentially a lot. The idea is that even if you get into the hundreds of counts, you will eventually die, and you will eventually pay. This isn't a bounty system where your buddy can kill you and give back the gold; this is going to be gold lost, and it doesn't even have to be from cutting off your head or PvP-only. A stray mob can cost you tens of thousands of gold in a dungeon, and most PKers are not accustomed to the more methodical pace of mountless combat. That's gonna' be a lot of reds ponying up cash for their crimes.

Regardless of how hard it seems gold will be to find early on, people as creatures of habit will find the most efficient means possible of farming, and I don't think gold will be a hindrance to someone who wants to go the path of PK.
This is true, but I doubt they will keep the penalties the same as the server's gold inflation increases. I imagine in 6 months to a year we will see these go from 200/300/400 to 300/400/500, then 400/500/600 and so on. We'll have to see after the first few weeks or months how it all pans out.

I'm all for pay more gold, receive lesser penalties, I just don't know that going down to zero penalties unless the gold sink is much higher, is the right way to do it.. At least it's a very easy system to tweak so from that perspective, so they can find the right balance in practice.
This is my only concern with the system, the wipe to 5 counts (and by extension, the no penalties at 5 counts). I think if they're going to remove counts, it should either be by half (to a minimum of 5, which could take awhile for large count PKers) or never wipe below 10-15 counts (so there's always a penalty option). The wipe to no penalties seems like a free pass for reds, particularly shitty reds, who will farm newbies with no real "red risk".
 
#26
To be honest the more I thought about it last night, its the free pass option bothers me more and more. The one time wipe to 5 counts, seems wrong.. Perhaps make option 1 a 100% wipe - Option 2 a 75% wipe, and Option 3 a 50% wipe, or at 5 kills, you still pay a fee of some sort - like minimum 5k gold. Conceptually if a red is being a nuisance, racking up kills on new players, you want other players to be able to come in and put a stop to it.. The Free pass lets them pay gold, and get right back out there PK'n, and if they die 5 more times without a kill they are not being punished for it. You really can't effectively shut down their nefarious acts.

But I also would like to see the other side of things - Notoriety... Players with huge kill counts, should be recognized for it in some way, utilize the town criers to call out be wary, the DreadLord IpkUrAss is at large (when they are online - not necessarily calling out locations). Find some way to reward PK's for racking up the counts without dying, and also make it like a leaderboard at the same time.

Some people have brought up the Paladin system, having a counter to PK's in some way would be a lot of fun, have it if the Paladin kills the PK, they force option 1. But also have the reverse true, if the PK kills the Paladin, the Paladin suffers similar penalties. As in not able to attack PK's.. (dunno how that'd work).
 
#27
At the very least, the fact this this post has almost double views of any other thread in Development, should tell you how polarizing the murderers and punishments discussion truly is, people will walk away from a server if they don't feel the balance is right, and PK's will run rampant.. would be great to see a poll if people felt the current iteration of penalties was strong enough.

Something along the lines of:

Punishments Too Strong
Good Premise - needs to be tweaked
Punishments Not Strong enough
Don't care
 
#28
To be honest the more I thought about it last night, its the free pass option bothers me more and more. The one time wipe to 5 counts, seems wrong.. Perhaps make option 1 a 100% wipe - Option 2 a 75% wipe, and Option 3 a 50% wipe, or at 5 kills, you still pay a fee of some sort - like minimum 5k gold. Conceptually if a red is being a nuisance, racking up kills on new players, you want other players to be able to come in and put a stop to it.. The Free pass lets them pay gold, and get right back out there PK'n, and if they die 5 more times without a kill they are not being punished for it. You really can't effectively shut down their nefarious acts.

But I also would like to see the other side of things - Notoriety... Players with huge kill counts, should be recognized for it in some way, utilize the town criers to call out be wary, the DreadLord IpkUrAss is at large (when they are online - not necessarily calling out locations). Find some way to reward PK's for racking up the counts without dying, and also make it like a leaderboard at the same time.

Some people have brought up the Paladin system, having a counter to PK's in some way would be a lot of fun, have it if the Paladin kills the PK, they force option 1. But also have the reverse true, if the PK kills the Paladin, the Paladin suffers similar penalties. As in not able to attack PK's.. (dunno how that'd work).
Why should they be punished further if they CAN'T get a kill? what's there to punish exactly if people are able to defend themselves? Keep in mind that if all counts weren't wiped a red would get statted dying to ANYTHING, and this being a shard where environmental dangers can kill you very easily, I think you are putting too much stock in this not being enough "punishment" when the gold sink component is already massive.
 
#29
It's a perspective, take it for what it is. With that said, it's not the ones that can't get a kill that I'm overly worried about, it's the ones who run around racking up 50 kills without dying... And then being wiped to zero. And there will be a few of those, because the reality is elite PvP'rs against average PvP'rs on PvM templates, being jumped by reds is never a winning battle from the start.

On the servers I've played on, and I'll admit they are limited, the biggest complaint is always reds, and the lack of punishments. What's extremely promising here is the faction systems, dueling arenas, and regular activity that those will bring, helping to minimize the number of Pk's out in the field, which could make reds a very limited problem.
 
#30
It's a perspective, take it for what it is. With that said, it's not the ones that can't get a kill that I'm overly worried about, it's the ones who run around racking up 50 kills without dying... And then being wiped to zero. And there will be a few of those, because the reality is elite PvP'rs against average PvP'rs on PvM templates, being jumped by reds is never a winning battle from the start.

On the servers I've played on, and I'll admit they are limited, the biggest complaint is always reds, and the lack of punishments. What's extremely promising here is the faction systems, dueling arenas, and regular activity that those will bring, helping to minimize the number of Pk's out in the field, which could make reds a very limited problem.
Yet the more kills a PK has when they die, the harsher the gold payout will be when they finally do die. Insinuating that there's no punishment or too little punishment here is absurd. Sure, they can take the smaller payout options as well, but that also functionally prevents them from PKing for a while. The fact of the matter is you don't need to even die to a player to get statted here, let's not pretend that the so-called "elite pvpers" never die. And also insinuating that ALL PKs are some huge group of elites is also absurd. The vast majority are scrubs that don't take much effort to kill even if you made some effort on a pvm template. If the problem becomes numbers, grouping solves that quite handily. The features are specifically tailored to force skill in pvp, so you won't get zergs of shitty PKs using target closest, and if they are unorganized otherwise, they are easy targets.

EDIT: And no, farming in the end game armor that is aspect with no competition and no threat is not a good scale of how easy it will be to get gold on live, let alone the guys that don't even build pvm templates to farm. This system will easily weed out those that can't hack it simply because they won't be able to afford it.
 
#32
We'll see - I can tell you that several people whom I've floated the murder punishments idea here by, weren't very impressed by it, didn't feel it would be enough, but only time will tell. I'm happy to let it roll and see where it goes. (not that I have a choice really)
 
#33
I miss the old bounty system where you had to cut of the murder head and give it to the towncrier. and the bounty board on the banks.
 
#34
I miss the old bounty system where you had to cut of the murder head and give it to the towncrier. and the bounty board on the banks.
I do, too, but it was so easily exploited because the consequences for dying did not outweigh the reward for taking victims' bounties via suicide.
 
#35
Bacacay said:

. This system will easily weed out those that can't hack it simply because they won't be able to afford it.
That's the key.
wait what are you two talking about?

why are you talking about "weeding out" any players? PKing is a playstyle, the difficulty (traditionally) has been balancing the fun of the Pker with the fun of the Pked.
PKing isnt about being the best PvPer. The best pvpers will most likely be participating in competitive PvP fights testing their skills , not ganking noobs or PvM template crafters.

Anyways I'm not sure if I understand you guys correctly, but we shouldnt be trying to weed out and make the game unfun for any people who play the game normally. Pkers and non Pkers alike
 
#36
wait what are you two talking about?

why are you talking about "weeding out" any players? PKing is a playstyle, the difficulty (traditionally) has been balancing the fun of the Pker with the fun of the Pked.
PKing isnt about being the best PvPer. The best pvpers will most likely be participating in competitive PvP fights testing their skills , not ganking noobs or PvM template crafters.

Anyways I'm not sure if I understand you guys correctly, but we shouldnt be trying to weed out and make the game unfun for any people who play the game normally. Pkers and non Pkers alike
Round and round we go. There's nothing stopping anyone from pking besides being able to kill people, and you get penalized for how many kills you have when you do die. PK all you want, just be ready to deal with the consequences if you rez kill some guy 50 times for no loot and then die with way too many counts for how much you gained from PKing. You CAN do it, but depending how much gold you are able to pay you're either going back in with 5 counts or you are taking time off from pking. You're right, it's a playstyle, and this system ensures that you have some measure of dedication to it instead of making throwaway pk toons since the penalties apply account-wide. This in effect "weeds out" those that don't treat it as a playstyle. And let's not pretend that some players will play at all if there's no pk penalties, if you want to go there.
 
#37
Will there be a leaderboard that keeps track of all past and present murder counts for each character? Perhaps a piece of code to stop the folks who res kill an alt just to scale the leaderboard?

I think this system sounds really good if a lich only drops 150/200 gold, and a murder count is going to cost you one or two liches and possibly 24 hours of probation. The comments about increasing the penalties with inflation are scary, that might eliminate the solo pkers and leave only pk guilds.

I vote no on implementing an official paladin system.