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Proposed Solution for Rampant PKing

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reb

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#41
in greater numbers, or just not going in too deep to make sure that theyre not getting tons of counts and ending up dead with no loot.
by then everything that has changed is that the pks will farm lv1 and lvl2 and you have not helped the shard in any way.
 
#42
What if an amount of loot in the victim body was automatically considered blessed (or otherwise not lootable) in proportion to the difference in karma between the killer and the victim?

Example
Killer and victim have very small difference in karma (like two reds): Almost no loot is automatically considered blessed (in addition to any that might already be).

Killer and victim have high difference in karma (serial killer vs benefactor): Up to 80% of the loot that would have been available is considered blessed and cannot be looted.

Desired outcome
Reds would be encouraged to prey on each other more than peaceful characters.
When they still prey on the peaceful, the increasing difference in karma makes it so that the gain/loss becomes smaller and smaller.



Having played in null EVE I also like the idea of controlling portions of land and setting up defenses, but that's a lot of work. Ideally everyone should be in a group all the time cause that's way more fun than playing solo.


EDIT:
On the other hand when a blue kills a red they should be able to loot everything.
 
#44
We as red players attacking blue players are actively ruining someone else's fun in most situations. There are times when some of us are looking for PvP on blues and we like being attacked by reds, but in general, most players who are playing blues are doing so for the PvM content and the red(s) attacking them is just a negative experience. Anyone who says otherwise is just not accepting the true reality of PvMers mindset. The claim that people need to "harden up" or whatever the appropriate lingo here isn't a real solution and only feeds into a very common problem of a dying shard.

This dying shard syndrome can be attributed to the negative nature of killing innocent players every day with no end in sight. When I speak with people in #PvP, a lot of them dislike the PvP mechanics here for the era, and I ask them why they are here, and every single one of them has replied "population". Thus we as murderers have to accept some form of responsibility. If we are going to ruin other peoples experiences we are going to have to accept harsher penalties. The interesting tidbit about all this is that whenever harsher penalties are brought up for red players, the outcry from the red players is massive, where the blue players actually complain less about us killing them every day compared to the pure shitstorm that red players will throw once any negative mechanic for their experience is brought forth.

The most common response I see when red players are being looked at for harsher penalties is that the red players will just group up and zerg even more thus making the problem worse. While this is true in some cases I think the majority of the time it isn't. I have run into way more 1-3 man groups than zergs of 5-10+. In fact, most of the top guilds here cannot even field a zerg as they are usually only a small group of elite people who don't let in most players and the ones who can field a zerg just for some reason don't?

I don't know what a correct solution to the issue is, and I don't think any solution will be found with a single patch, but instead found over iterations of changes and observations of numbers of pk's and kills in relation to those changes.

In the meantime, until we find these solutions:

I agree that dungeon gates should only allow blue players out. Anyone who is red or permagray, should not be allowed to use those gates. We accept the risk when we commit criminal actions in dungeons that we are not allowed to use those gates. It makes killing the entire dungeon then hopping the gate to corpse creek way too simple. This is a change that I see no real downside, besides the "we will just roll in bigger numbers" mantra, in which I have played in many games all PvP focused and I have found that good players only enjoy zerging when there is end game content involved that is worth zerging over. In the past, I found that almost all good PvPers actually prefer to fight outnumbered because it is much more thrilling, which is why most good pvpers keep small group numbers.

I also think we should remove the ability to recall in/out of dungeons near the moongates on red/permagrey players, as well as not allow these players to be gated into/out of those areas as well. These players should have to enter the dungeon by the entrance and leave by entrance only.

I also agree that the price for each kill needs to be increased baseline probably double what it is now. Killing almost any noob in any dungeon is profitable with the current cost.

Some ideas:

1. Create a system to increase the cost of the kills based on the number of reds in a dungeon. Yes, I said the entire dungeon. So if you want to zerg there is no way around the increased cost of that zerg. If there are 5 reds in that dungeon when you take a count, that count cost you 250x5 or 1250 gold when you res. This mechanic completely nullifies that garbage "we will just bring more" because if you bring more and then at some point later die, you still gonna pay that "we brought more" mentality. If you are a solo PK and you end up killing someone while other reds are in the dungeon, just the tax of doing business.

2. Create an exponential system where each count cost increases as your kill count grows, and make repenting take longer each time you do it. Example kill count cost: First 50 kills cost 250 gold, then the next 50 cost 350, then the next 50 cost 500 gold, next 50 cost 1000 gold. Then make each repent increase in exponential time as well. If you have 50 kills and you repent your time is the standard repent time. If you have 500 kills your repent is much longer, since ideally you should spend longer repenting for all those poor souls.

From what I have seen the cost of killing has had its toil and several players have repented from the long terms, the issue is that it took them 300-500+ kills before they decided it was too much. 300-500 players that had negative experiences before the red had to consider it worth clearing those counts. Those numbers are not healthy.

3. We need factions! I think it will help with a good chunk of this.

Anywho, just one man's observation. Right now I am finding every count I take well worth the cost.
 
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#47
Discussions on solutions to mitigate murdering never go anywhere on any shard I have ever played on. In fact, I fact, every UO PK discussion thread I have ever seen can be summed up in two lines:
  • "Man, getting PKd every time I leave town sucks shit. I hate losing hours of effort every time I decide to play."
  • "WTF are you talking about? This is UO. Welcome to UO pleb. Bank more often and don't even think about being efficient or something retarded like that. Git gud or git gone. The only problem here is you being a pussy, pussy."
Don't waste your time trying to explain your point of view. The people killing you 400 times over to take 500 gold don't give a rat's ass and are unbelievably short-sighted. If you aren't happy with the current state of the game, just do something else and monitor for changes. I've stopped 'adventuring' after being pkd for the 30th time and having to deal with dungeon mob dragging for hours on end. I just semi-afk mine resources (which I get pkd at least four times a day doing) while I play PS4 or Switch. I can't handle the sociopaths and my time is too valuable to entertain assholes at the expense of my enjoyment.

The most enjoyable thing to happen in game for me so far was to get that alacrity scroll so I can watch my harvesting and crafting skills go up faster. Oh, and having someone donate a pack animal to me once I left noobville - which was murdered 2 minutes later. If people can't see a problem then you aren't going to enlighten them. You are just going to let them forum pk you too.

The fact of the matter is a for-profit company (OSI) saw such a problem from unmitigated murdering that they threw in the towel and created Trammel because subscriptions were dropping like flies. Were there other factors? Definitely, but clearly (based on their data analytics) murdering was enough of an issue to put in a colossal amount of effort to implement a very drastic solution. I don't wan't Trammel, but I'd like to enjoy some of this unique content without getting killed every 5 minutes.
Truth be told, the waves of slaughter aren't actually that common if you are in a dungeon all day. I work from home and have a character sitting in Pulma grinding track on the side. There were only ~3 yesterday all morning/afternoon and it's pretty much always the same group. But I did see people get wrecked and camped multiple times.

It actually surprises me how salty the PVP side of the UO community has gotten over the last decade or so. I've played pretty much every era of this game, pre-tram, tram, early fellucca private servers, late fellucca private servers, and eventually AOS with a mix of UOF over the past 3-5 years or so since I was bored of the t2a ruleset. It really seems like the last few Felucca servers have bred this crazy toxicity throughout the community. Sure, there were some psychos in the old game, but I legit feel like people like Blitzkrieg want the server dead for some sadistic reason. The way he replies with "well I'll just fuck them over this way instead! haha!" whenever Owyn drops an idea to help newbs out is just sad.

Outland has such a crazy amount of potential. That's why so many are coming back and flooding it. The PVE content is stellar this time around, builds are different (especially all the crazy pets tamers have to choose from) , Every mob has unique abilities, dungeons are super dangerous on a PVE side, and the boss fights are exciting. Usually with a new UO server my track would be Grind a farmer->use that gold to grind a pvp character->go red/join factions for a few weeks->house maintenence and come back for patches, but there is so much more on this one. There are SO MANY people running around just having a good time in dungeons. I'd feel bad ever going red and stopping that.

PVM characters have 0 chance against a trio of perfectly tuned PVP killing machines which is typically what clears out all the dungeons periodically. Most people are dexers, tamers, and summoners, and none of those are going to do shit against 2 mages 1 shotting them with a synchdump. Hell, builds aside a bunch of people fighting mobs in a dungeon don't have the luxury of voicechat to form up and mount a resistance. Usually its solos or groups of 2 farming, and 2-3 PVM spec in discord vs 2-3 PVP spec in discord doesn't stand a chance, and reds are long gone before anyone can form up. We didn't have voice chat and scripts in the 90's for that kind of abuse.

The problem is, there is no real natural way to combat it in game right now. Either you have a second account scout posted or you just die. My main hasn't died once to pk with this strat in dungeons, but I have a character on the first floor at all times keeping watch on my second monitor. You can't recall out, and running to a gate isn't always an option on floor 3+, so it's really just early warning or die. I'll usually run around letting people know PKS are on the first floor just because I'm that worried we will see oldschool UO population decline again.

I think people forget that Trammel was a reaction to declining subs. Even in the 90's when the idea of a persistent online world was freakin voodoo and everyone was super excited to be playing this first of it's kind nerdgasm fantasy world, the game was dying due to PK and griefers. Tram was a massive success as much as people love to shit on it. I'm worried that we are seeing the same thing here now. MMORPGS have been AWFUL for the last decade. Just look at /r/mmorpg for a glimpse at how lost and annoyed at the modern state of gaming everyone is. Here we finally have that nerdgasm of a fantasy world back and the flood is here, but it will eventually slow and players getting melted every time they try to do something won't stick around. As was said in the dev debrief, the 50 or so active reds don't actually bring anything to the game.

There are some good ones though. I saw a pair of reds yesterday completely ignore people grinding at the gate and chill around until real PVP came and formed up. That was exciting. Mindlessly farming newbs? Bad for the game.
 
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#48
Lets just remove the possibility to go red. Lets thrive on a big playerbase grinding for in game gold so they can buy their flashy items and houses and have fun time hunting big monsters in dungeons.

Lets remove the chance of stealing items from people who doesnt want them to be stolen, atleast items worth 10k+. It's so boring to buy something from a vendor and somehow it gets stolen cause some thief is hidden right next to you.

Lets 2018-19 get a completly new playerbase to UO, since most players who plays UO havnt played it before. It's a real big new community growing. Not the same people joining over and over.

Lets all be happy birthday friends and enjoy this beautiful map and enjoy the gold in our bankbox and all we can do with it !!

Just some ideas.
 
#49
Lets just remove the possibility to go red. Lets thrive on a big playerbase grinding for in game gold so they can buy their flashy items and houses and have fun time hunting big monsters in dungeons.

Lets remove the chance of stealing items from people who doesnt want them to be stolen, atleast items worth 10k+. It's so boring to buy something from a vendor and somehow it gets stolen cause some thief is hidden right next to you.

Lets 2018-19 get a completly new playerbase to UO, since most players who plays UO havnt played it before. It's a real big new community growing. Not the same people joining over and over.

Lets all be happy birthday friends and enjoy this beautiful map and enjoy the gold in our bankbox and all we can do with it !!

Just some ideas.
I know it's sarcastic, but I don't doubt for a second that the vast majority of people playing right now would hop right on over and be happy with trammel if it was in game ;)
 
#50
I know it's sarcastic, but I don't doubt for a second that the vast majority of people playing right now would hop right on over and be happy with trammel if it was in game ;)
Totally my point, so why lure the pvpers to this server if they want trammel, they cant have both :(
 
#52
Totally my point, so why lure the pvpers to this server if they want trammel, they cant have both :(
I'm pretty sure the people who would prefer a Trammel-esque experience are but a vocal minority. I can't wrap my head around the idea that people who have been playing this game for close to 20 years somehow expected something different, as far as the "PK situation" is concerned.

I don't even PK and I'm shit at PvP, yet I'm still having fun. That adrenaline rush when red names appear on screen and I'm loaded with loot is the main reason I'm playing this game. And despite being shit at PvP, the only time I was PKed so far was when 2 people from Anarchy ganked one of my gatherers, which I could have avoided by running away when I saw them coming, but I wanted to make friends... They didn't. I lost a very good hatchet that day and about 10-minutes worth of logs, so I figure I should throw a tantrum about it.

Seriously folks, how hard is it to carry trapped pouches and potions, and to set some keybinds and macros to survive a murderer. If you really can't stand the idea of getting PKed, just pick up the Hiding and Tracking skills, then you'll see PKs coming from miles away and will be able to hide from them before they even see you, if that's how you want to play it.

I really don't see why anything has to change, nor do I know how often "Git gud!" will have to be repeated before people finally get it. I'm not even good, but I'm good enough that PKs don't ruin my day. The best rule of thumb is (and always has been): Don't leave town with what you can't afford to lose. I literally macroed a toon to GM Hiding+Stealth just so I could place my houses without taking any risk whatsoever...

That said, I don't mind PKs and thieves, but what I really hate is people who block stair/doorways and/or bring monsters to you so you'll die, then loot you and hide their criminal timer away before GTFO with everything you own without any negative repercussions. And despite hating those MFers with a passion, it's part of the game, too. In the end, it's my fault for not having Red potions when that happens.
 
#53
I'm pretty sure the people who would prefer a Trammel-esque experience are but a vocal minority. I can't wrap my head around the idea that people who have been playing this game for close to 20 years somehow expected something different, as far as the "PK situation" is concerned.
I'm pretty sure the people who would prefer a Trammel-esque experience are but a vocal minority. I can't wrap my head around the idea that people who have been playing this game for close to 20 years somehow expected something different, as far as the "PK situation" is concerned.

I don't even PK and I'm shit at PvP, yet I'm still having fun. That adrenaline rush when red names appear on screen and I'm loaded with loot is the main reason I'm playing this game. And despite being shit at PvP, the only time I was PKed so far was when 2 people from Anarchy ganked one of my gatherers, which I could have avoided by running away when I saw them coming, but I wanted to make friends... They didn't. I lost a very good hatchet that day and about 10-minutes worth of logs, so I figure I should throw a tantrum about it.

Seriously folks, how hard is it to carry trapped pouches and potions, and to set some keybinds and macros to survive a murderer. If you really can't stand the idea of getting PKed, just pick up the Hiding and Tracking skills, then you'll see PKs coming from miles away and will be able to hide from them before they even see you, if that's how you want to play it.

I really don't see why anything has to change, nor do I know how often "Git gud!" will have to be repeated before people finally get it. I'm not even good, but I'm good enough that PKs don't ruin my day. The best rule of thumb is (and always has been): Don't leave town with what you can't afford to lose. I literally macroed a toon to GM Hiding+Stealth just so I could place my houses without taking any risk whatsoever...

That said, I don't mind PKs and thieves, but what I really hate is people who block stair/doorways and/or bring monsters to you so you'll die, then loot you and hide their criminal timer away before GTFO with everything you own without any negative repercussions. And despite hating those MFers with a passion, it's part of the game, too. In the end, it's my fault for not having Red potions when that happens.
This is the first server in forever with PVE content that isn't 20 years old. Brand new dungeons/world to explore means a lot less people want to go out and just slaughter each other like the last decade and a half. There is so much fun to be had on the PVE end finally. The biggest mob in oldschool Ultima was balrons, and they were still pushovers. Now we've got a host of stuff to battle it out against.

I and many others are the same. My main farmer hasn't died to PVP yet with any kind of loot on them. But I also have 20 years of UO experience and know how to avoid pvp entirely if I want to. A lot of people don't though. That's how huge this server is. It's bringing in loads of people who haven't played forever or are completely new. People that aren't prepared at all for how cutthroat the UO community has gotten over the years. I wish I could have started sooner with the initial wave so I could help train them up, but I starting late, so I just do my best to warn people in dungeons to gtfo when reds are coming to murder them all.
 
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#55
I know there's a like button, but I just want to take a moment to recognize Yus idea about scaling murder penalties based on the amount of reds in the entire dungeon.

thats a badass idea, decentivizing big gank squds and incentivizing smaller pk groups/solo pks.

I know I already said this in another thread, but Id like to add my idea of Pks being able to turn in the heads of fresh kills to a dungeon altar or something akin. After X amount of time waiting around the altar the Pk would get a reward based on the quality(fame) of heads he turned in. Maybe even cap the amount of heads or the amount of pks who can be rewarded, to further incentize less gank squads.

combined with Yu's idea I think this would be plenty to lower the amount of large gank squads and to incentive not over fishing(because the reward for recent cut off heads is capped at a certain # of heads..and based off of fame).
and facilitate an environment where antis and pks are more likely to fight(because the pks would be waiting around the dungeon longer, waiting for their reward).
 
#58
With the way cams are right now, nobody should be dying in any dungeon. Having a cam at inferno gate level 2, how can anybody possible get to the bottom before somebody leaves? Honestly I think you should just jail the people sitting in a doorway that have 0 items/resources/skills other than hiding.

As for raising the cost for reds to res, I am all for it. I think it should be scaled over time, as more gold is on the server.
 
#59
In EVE Online, after you aggroed on someone you activated a no-despawn period, I don't remember the number exactly but it was several minutes.
So, after ganking on someone, people couldn't jut log off and switch to a "safe" character cause if they did their avatar (ship) would not despawn but just sit there (more or less, you had to track it first) until the timer expired.

It didn't stop people from trying to go for easy prey. But it felt really good to be able to retaliate.
 
#60
The problem is that it only takes 2 people to ruin hundreds of peoples experience.
Those 100s of people should team up and get rid of those 2 people (if we're talking about PKs and not blockers...?).

I mean, even in RL, 2 people with guns can only kill 100 unarmed people if those 100 unarmed people sit still and wait for the bullet...
 
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