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Simplistic/Fun Solution to PK problem

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#1
BOUNTIES!

TL-DR: Everyone can gain money from killing Reds! (blue/grey/red doesn't matter)

This suggestion seeks to make both Reds and Blues happy and require as little work as possible from Owyn and Luthius to implement.


Reds should be just as at risk of danger as Blues, here's how we make it happen:
-Every short term murder count adds to the Red's bounty. For the purpose of this post, I'm gonna say 1,000 gold is the bounty price added for every short term murder count.
-Example: If a Red has 15 short term murder counts, they have a bounty price of 15,000 gold.
-When the Red is killed, half of the bounty price is awarded as a check/gold in the bank to any players that helped make the kill, based on damage dealt.
-Why half of the bounty price? Explained below.
-Example: A Red has a bounty price of 15,000 gold, and is killed by 3 players, player A B and C. Half of the 15,000 gold bounty is split between them based on damage dealt, which means 7,500 gold is the prize for their valiant deed! Player A did 50% of the damage, player B did 40% of the damage, and player C did 10% of the damage. Player A receives 50% of 7,500 gold, so 3,750 gold. Player B receives 40% of 7,500 gold, so 3,000 gold. Player C receives 10% of 7,500 gold, so 750 gold.
-Why is it important that the reward is split based on damage dealt? Because if the entire bounty was paid to only the last hitter, the coordinated Red squads could last hit each other to take the bounty for themselves. It also gives confidence to even weak pvm based characters that they will get at least some reward if they contribute in a fight against the Red.
-(The reward money is not paid out until the Red pays the resurrection fine, to avoid abuse. Thanks @biorhythm)
-(The bounty gets paid out at resurrection and any character with short term counts can't be deleted until those counts are paid for or they decay. Thanks @a_white_wyrm )


The Red is dead, what happens next?
-Once dead, the Red can not resurrect until they've paid their own bounty price in full. The Red in this example would have to pay 15,000 gold to resurrect and clear their short term murder count.
-Why half of the bounty price? So that if the Red uses their own alternate character to kill themselves, they still suffer a net loss of gold. A 15,000 gold bounty would award their alternate character 7,500 gold, and they would still have lost a net of 7,500 gold.
-The ability to "Repent!" for Reds would be moved off the resurrection system. They would be forced to pay their bounty price in full before their character could be resurrected. Could put the "Repent!" ability on a npc in Corpse Creek, or at Shrines, etc, usable only while you're alive and with a cleared short term murder count.



There should be a tag added in front of every Red's name showing current short term murder count, and therefor the bounty price. As pictured below, there is a [79] in front of the Red's name, which indicates they have a 79 short term murder count, which means a 79,000 gold bounty to be feasted on. This will add to the danger a Red experiences when they do their merry skips through dungeons. If a bunch of Blues saw a 79,000 gold bounty on a Red, they would realize they finally have incentive to fight back.

pk suggestion picture edit2.png



In the future there could be murder events. Reds compete to get the highest short term murder count and receive cosmetic items based on placement. Reds would kill other Reds to keep them from beating their top score for short term murder count. For the purpose of the event if it ever happens, killing the same target over and over would not help your event score, but still give you increased bounty, so you can't game the system by griefing the same player over and over or killing your alternate characters.


Some expected consequences of this Bounty system:
-Reds might spare weak value-less targets and seek the bigger fish with larger stacks of gold on them. They know they will receive a bounty on their head of 1,000 gold for any murder, which means they will hope to kill people who will drop greater than 1,000 gold in value.
-Reds might allow more time for Blues to farm dungeons and build up a gold stack, rather than constantly steam rolling every dungeon. Blues may experience a greater time gap between Red sightings.
-Reds will kill other Reds to steal bounty from them. Reds may spend their time warring other Reds, Blues may experience a greater time gap between Red sightings.
-Reds who seek to terrorize people just for the sake of it, who continuously kill low-value targets, will be handled naturally by the system. Their bounty keeps going up while their low value victims offer little gold to help pay it. Eventually they will run out of gold. Sounds good to me, ruining other peoples day shouldn't be so inexpensive.
-The Red squads might reduce their numbers. If you use 5 Reds to kill 1 Blue, you will have effectively gained 5 short term murder counts between your crew, meaning the Blue needs to have at least 5,000 gold in value or your crew has lost money.
-The great veto might start eating his own little fishies if they get fat enough.
-The fishies might eat the great veto.


Blues, wouldn't it be nice if when you see a Red, you think "Today is the day I defend myself and get paid for it" instead of thinking "Another Red, time to run, since the Red has minimal loot, so I have everything to lose and nothing to gain"

Reds, wouldn't it be nice if you could traitor your Red friends and get a gigantic check in your bank? Wouldn't it be cute if Blues occasionally put up a fight, and still lose because they are PvM characters that haven't played UO in 20 years?
 
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#2
asserting there is a "pk problem", right off the bat, will probably dissuade some from having a constructive conversation with you.

theres some some fun ideas in here. but I think they can be abused too easily. ie

-the automatic 1k bounty... a throw away character would be incentivized to just rez kill noobs. effectively making 1k off each noob rez kill. If he had a friend or an alt character just kill him for the bounty when done.
- the % damage done... @ first seemed like you were onto something to me. but @ a closer look, the pk and his buddies could just macro afk spar with each other to do like 30000k damage. So when he does die, his buddy or alt will get like 99% of the damage done bounty,



the best combo of ideas IMO are as follows:

-increased penalty for each count, based on the amount of reds currently in the dungeon. 2 reds = +25% penalty, 3 = +50%, 4 = + 75% ect ect. the base penalty could be made 10% lower if a compromise needs to be made.

-pks having an incetive to cut off the heads of kills in dungeon and gift them to some dungeon altar(requiring like 10minutes). where they would be rewarded for the quality(fame of the heads given). thus incentivizing pks to stick around. cap the amount of pks that can be rewarded over "x" time, so to decentivize large gank squads. the base murder penalty might need to be raised, as to make sticking around to get this gold reward a big part of how pks turn a profit.

-remove ability for pks to use dungeon gates. forcing them to walk back out the entrance, giving chance for people to come fight them.

-remove pvp damage bonus from tracking.. or make it only give pvp bonus to archery damage(ranger archetype) (this one is not as interactive, but gives the proper pvm templates the edge in fleeing)



edit: I do also really like your idea of titles and awards for players with the highest bounty counts
 
#3
@biorhythm
"the automatic 1k bounty... a throw away character would be incentivized to just rez kill noobs. effectively making 1k off each noob rez kill. If he had a friend or an alt character just kill him for the bounty when done. "

sorry i may have explained wrong. Essentially everytime the Red makes a kill they LOSE 1k, they dont gain 1k. They have a bounty of 1k put on them for every murder, and when they die, they cannot res until they pay this 1k bounty. The players who kill them split 500 gold as reward money, so effectively it is a 500 gold SINK that is lost forever for every murder that happens in the game.

Currently, the game has a 200 gold SINK for murders, which can be bypassed with "Repent!".

" the % damage done... @ first seemed like you were onto something to me. but @ a closer look, the pk and his buddies could just macro afk spar with each other to do like 30000k damage. So when he does die, his buddy or alt will get like 99% of the damage done bounty, "

This would be up to Luthius coding, he could simply put a timer in. Only the damage that happened in the last 60 seconds counts towards kill credit on a Red.

Thanks for feedback!
 
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#4
Enough is enough guys.

I can't even read most of the suggestions in their entirety because they're that BAD.

I don't mean to be negative, but a lot of you basically want trammel without calling it trammel.

The most successful free shard of all time was Hybrid. This had 0 penalties for pking, and in turn it allowed for tons of pvp and didn't seem to affect the pvm aspect in the slightest.

With all the crazy penalties a alot of you are proposing for reds, it will just mean reds will be forced to roll in larger groups to compensate for the increased risk in death. As it stands, the penalties are high. I'm probably sitting well over 200k paid out, with probably half of that due to MOBS rather than players.

Yesterday i died by clicking a heal on a team mate rather than myself and being synced out by a bunch of (bored) blue pvpers whom subsequently all met their death shortly after. Anyways, that (mistake) death cost me over 17k gold + loot.... Now, 17k here is a lot of gold, think about how open reds are to taking risks knowing that if they die they lose a fat amount of gold... If you increase that, our risk taking appetite will go down big time, i.e roll in larger packs swarming all you bads. This in turn means even less pvp for the bored blue 7xgm blue chars that roam around basically watching paint dry until they manage to gank a red every 12 hours and a thief every 2 hours.

Harsher penalties = less pvp.

I really don't think factions will help much, as many players hate the endless marathon runs or being synced out from drop delayed drop macros + 90% of you can't even fight a red with 2 to 5xgm skills, let alone marathon running 1 button 7x mages with drop macros. The hub of pvp has always been based around pvm content - i.e champ spawns or other high end mobs etc.

As for this "pk problem", the problem isn't pks, it's the lack of willingness of bad players to either group up or prepare themselves adequately (pots, regs, field awareness, trap pouches, ar etc) for the greatness of UO which is player interaction, not 'hello kitty solo farm fest to $5m'. I've been pked a fair number of times on my blues, be it farming gold, semi-macroing taming etc, and everytime i've laughed my ass off, ressed up, got a new mount etc. Most of those times i could have avoided it simply by actually not doing what half of you do - farm/tame semi afk, and actually been watching my screen more closely. I've also teamed up with random blues to fight and kill reds on my blue characters that were training in dungeons.... It's as simple as calling targets by typing, letting them know you've got the bars pulled to heal etc, rather than running around in circles like a headless chicken in heat.

Secondly, and it 'grinds my gears', is that a lot of the vocal anti-pk types here literally think being a PK = printing gold, as in you think just by being red, all of you blues just fall over from stage fright and hand us piles of gold.... Come on.... If it was that easy, more would be doing it and secondly players like Stormy, wombat etc wouldn't be SO GOD DAMNED RICH FROM FARMING!!!

Now, after reading this, i hope i have inspired some of you to re-think your solo/ill-prepared play styles, whilst also giving you a dose of common sense.

Personally i hope they open up some more dungeons - ones that are more spaced out, whilst also enabling mounts in some of those dungeons - which will encourage more solo pks, given the off-mount makes it way harder to solo pk running targets that flee with bandaids, and also a no stat loss dungeon with some kind of champion spawn/unique boss would also be good in order to encourage large scale warfare of blues vs reds etc

/discussion
 
#5
@caitlyn jenner

Thanks for your response, however it seems like you haven't read any of the specifics or intentions of my post, and have just made a blanket statement.

My proposal is assuredly not anti pvp, in fact in would greatly increase the amount of pvp that happens. I'm saying we give people a reason to fight rather than to run.

If you go watch a dungeon pk squad in person, or in a stream, you will see 5+ organized pks attack a bunch of blues that each run away and put up no fight. MOST of these blues ARE PREPARED, they have trapped pouches, they have potions, but they have NO INCENTIVE TO FIGHT.

Why do they have no incentive to fight? Because the reds chasing them have minimal gear and no gold from farming. Meanwhile the blues are fully equipped and ready, not only for monster hunting, but also for the inevitable pk squad that runs through dungeons every 10 minutes. The blues also have gold from farming.

The mathematically correct response for any pvm farming blue being attacked by a red is to run away. This is what should be changed. Blues should have a reason to fight back.

So this bounty system would give blues a reason to fight back, even though their pvm characters are going to have an uphill battle against the fully pvp based red squads. This means actual PVP, rather than just reds slaughtering lambs. Reds might have to work for kills if people put up a fight.

"it will just mean reds will be forced to roll in larger groups to compensate for the increased risk in death "

As I explained, the larger a red group is, the greater the bounty penalty will affect them and the less gold they effectively make off a kill.
 
#6
@caitlyn jenner

Thanks for your response, however it seems like you haven't read any of the specifics or intentions of my post, and have just made a blanket statement.

My proposal is assuredly not anti pvp, in fact in would greatly increase the amount of pvp that happens. I'm saying we give people a reason to fight rather than to run.

If you go watch a dungeon pk squad in person, or in a stream, you will see 5+ organized pks attack a bunch of blues that each run away and put up no fight. MOST of these blues ARE PREPARED, they have trapped pouches, they have potions, but they have NO INCENTIVE TO FIGHT.

Why do they have no incentive to fight? Because the reds chasing them have minimal gear and no gold from farming. Meanwhile the blues are fully equipped and ready, not only for monster hunting, but also for the inevitable pk squad that runs through dungeons every 10 minutes. The blues also have gold from farming.

The mathematically correct response for any pvm farming blue being attacked by a red is to run away. This is what should be changed. Blues should have a reason to fight back.

So this bounty system would give blues a reason to fight back, even though their pvm characters are going to have an uphill battle against the fully pvp based red squads. This means actual PVP, rather than just reds slaughtering lambs. Reds might have to work for kills if people put up a fight.

"it will just mean reds will be forced to roll in larger groups to compensate for the increased risk in death "

As I explained, the larger a red group is, the greater the bounty penalty will affect them and the less gold they effectively make off a kill.
You get gold currently for killing red's based on their short term counts.

I got through part of your original post and saw 79k bounty for 79 short terms... Come on.... Had to stop right there, I have a limited capacticty for posts without common sense and/or logic.

As for no incentive for blues? as mentioned they currently get part of the bounty based on short term counts, get huge satisfaction killing the reds, get their loots (reds actually come prepared with potions, ar, regs, weapons, trap pouches etc, even gold of other players!) and take them out of the game for 1 hour or 72 hours if they repent, along with forcing that red to a lot of the time cough up a HUGE BOUNTY, as in blues effectively GRIEF THE SHIT OUT OF REDS by killing them. Trust me, my bank gets e-raped from pk statloss as it stands.

This is the problem, the vocal blues requesting changes have never played a serious red character yet are requesting changes for them based on their emotions rather than logic. I play both a red AND YOUR PLAYSTYLE of a blue that is forced to deal with reds. I have no problems dying, or fighting back with randoms whilst i have loot on me. In fact after killing a few, i felt bad knowing the poor reds suffered massive gold loss for statloss simply because they chose to try and fuck with some blues that had balls not headless chicken fever.
 
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#7
@biorhythm
"the automatic 1k bounty... a throw away character would be incentivized to just rez kill noobs. effectively making 1k off each noob rez kill. If he had a friend or an alt character just kill him for the bounty when done. "

sorry i may have explained wrong. Essentially everytime the Red makes a kill they LOSE 1k, they dont gain 1k. They have a bounty of 1k put on them for every murder, and when they die, they cannot res until they pay this 1k bounty. The players who kill them split 500 gold as reward money, so effectively it is a 500 gold SINK that is lost forever for every murder that happens in the game.

Currently, the game has a 200 gold SINK for murders, which can be bypassed with "Repent!".
appreciate the response. the last couple minutes only counting towards damage done, does make more sense.

in regards to this though. having an auto bounty placed for each kill, can still be abused.. unless your saying the pk has 1k deducted from his bank everytime he does a murder?

because how Im reading it is:
I make a throw away character.
I then go rez kill a bunch of noobs... or a buddies character. say like 100 times.
I now have a 100k debt to pay.. in addition whoever kills me, received 50k.
So I just have my buddy or an alt character kill my throw away character and get an easy 50k. Thus getting a huge reward for rez killing noobs. The throw away character never actually pays the 100k.. I just delete the character and restart.
 
#8
"I make a throw away character.
I then go rez kill a bunch of noobs... or a buddies character. say like 100 times.
I now have a 100k debt to pay.. in addition whoever kills me, received 50k.
So I just have my buddy or an alt character kill my throw away character and get an easy 50k. Thus getting a huge reward for rez killing noobs. The throw away character never actually pays the 100k.. I just delete the character and restart. "


Damn you're right. Need a solution for that.

Maybe the gold isn't rewarded instantly. Maybe it waits until the Red pays the resurrection bounty price. Once the gold is actually paid, everyone is rewarded their cut.

So in your example, the 50k reward wouldn't be given out until the Red paid the 100k fee.
 
#10
@caitlyn jenner

Feels like we are having a miscommunication.

Heres a hypothetical question:
There are 3 copies of you caitlyn jenner, each of you is exactly the same age/intelligence/skill level, referred to now as Caitlyn A, Caitlyn B, Caitlyn C. Each Caitlyn has 12 trapped pouches, 15 gheal gcure pots, and exactly the same build and equipment.

Caitlyn A is Blue, and has been farming in a dungeon for the last 20 minutes, and has 6k gold.

Caitlyn B and C are Red, and have just ran onto on Caitlyn A's screen.

You are Caitlyn A, what do you do next?
-Immediately run for the moongate and leave to protect my 6k gold.
-Stand and fight, I'm more skilled and more prepared than two exact copies of me. I will win this fight. The gold I have on me is not important in this equation.




Do you see the problem? Why should Caitlyn A engage in PVP here?
 
#12
@caitlyn jenner

Feels like we are having a miscommunication.

Heres a hypothetical question:
There are 3 copies of you caitlyn jenner, each of you is exactly the same age/intelligence/skill level, referred to now as Caitlyn A, Caitlyn B, Caitlyn C. Each Caitlyn has 12 trapped pouches, 15 gheal gcure pots, and exactly the same build and equipment.

Caitlyn A is Blue, and has been farming in a dungeon for the last 20 minutes, and has 6k gold.

Caitlyn B and C are Red, and have just ran onto on Caitlyn A's screen.

You are Caitlyn A, what do you do next?
-Immediately run for the moongate and leave to protect my 6k gold.
-Stand and fight, I'm more skilled and more prepared than two exact copies of me. I will win this fight. The gold I have on me is not important in this equation.




Do you see the problem? Why should Caitlyn A engage in PVP here?
I'd get semi-chubbed knowing a fight is going to break out, call my buddies over teamspeak that i'm being attacked by 2 clowns and we're going to pull their pants down and dunk on them.

I strategically run through mobs whilst applying bandaids/potions and watch them get swamped by spells/general shittery whilst i calmly use my trap pouches and watch them waste mana/lose tiles to my character. Depending on my skills, i may also use hiding, or run into further blues whilst spamming with text let's shit on these guys.

If i have too much valuable stuff - i.e 6k gold (i dont hold that much farming because im smarter than your average blue) + some orbs or something, yes i would be smart and use the gate, unless my guild was VERY close by or i had above average intelligence blues attacking the reds in-front of me, in which case as mentioned above - DUNK ON THE REDS!

FYI, until the last week, i had been 80 mage low 70's resist on my main red freely attacking 7x chars.
 
#13
@caitlyn jenner

You've broken the rules of the hypothetical. I like that response though. Heres the results.

Little did Caitlyn B and Caitlyn C know, that Caitlyn A was in teamspeak with his buddies. Caitlyn A called Caitlyn D, Caitlyn E, and Caitlyn F to come dunk on fools. While D E and F kindly dropped what they were doing, stashed their valuables and got on their less pricey loot that they dont mind losing.. Caitlyn A expertly kited Caitlyn B and Caitlyn C around the level 3 dungeon for 10 minutes straight. Caitlyn B and C were dumbfounded how an equally geared equally skilled guy made them look so pathetic. Finally Caitlyn D E and F arrived to help out. Since Caitlyn B and C were unable to catch Caitlyn A for 10 minutes, they had no pvp timer active and so they used the gate and left. Caitlyn A D E and F felt great about themselves and talked about how they scared off a couple fools. Caitlyn G told them they all wasted about 30k collectively in the time they spent running around and not farming, but Caitlyn G doesn't know shit, just a trammy.
 
#14
@caitlyn jenner

You've broken the rules of the hypothetical. I like that response though. Heres the results.

Little did Caitlyn B and Caitlyn C know, that Caitlyn A was in teamspeak with his buddies. Caitlyn A called Caitlyn D, Caitlyn E, and Caitlyn F to come dunk on fools. While D E and F kindly dropped what they were doing, stashed their valuables and got on their less pricey loot that they dont mind losing.. Caitlyn A expertly kited Caitlyn B and Caitlyn C around the level 3 dungeon for 10 minutes straight. Caitlyn B and C were dumbfounded how an equally geared equally skilled guy made them look so pathetic. Finally Caitlyn D E and F arrived to help out. Since Caitlyn B and C were unable to catch Caitlyn A for 10 minutes, they had no pvp timer active and so they used the gate and left. Caitlyn A D E and F felt great about themselves and talked about how they scared off a couple fools. Caitlyn G told them they all wasted about 30k collectively in the time they spent running around and not farming, but Caitlyn G doesn't know shit, just a trammy.
Alternatively i could take option #2 like 90% of the player base and:

Run around like a headless chook, die, rage, throw my keyboard, blame others, cry on discord/forums for unwarranted changes to suit me.
 
#15
Yes exactly, in the original hypothetical, option #2 is the wrong choice. Option #1 is the correct choice, which is the current problem with the blue-red dynamic. If the correct choice for a blue is always to run and protect their value, then there is no choice at all. And games aren't fun when there is no choice.

So I propose that a Red, who may be on an incredible kill streak, could potentially have a high enough bounty on them that a blue might think "Fuck this 6,000 gold I have on me.. that Red has a 30,000 gold bounty, if I kill him I will get 15,000 gold. It's an uphill battle that I will likely lose with my pvm character, but I'm risking 6,000 gold for 15,000 gold, lets give it a shot"
 
#16
"I make a throw away character.
I then go rez kill a bunch of noobs... or a buddies character. say like 100 times.
I now have a 100k debt to pay.. in addition whoever kills me, received 50k.
So I just have my buddy or an alt character kill my throw away character and get an easy 50k. Thus getting a huge reward for rez killing noobs. The throw away character never actually pays the 100k.. I just delete the character and restart. "


Damn you're right. Need a solution for that.

Maybe the gold isn't rewarded instantly. Maybe it waits until the Red pays the resurrection bounty price. Once the gold is actually paid, everyone is rewarded their cut.

So in your example, the 50k reward wouldn't be given out until the Red paid the 100k fee.
The bounty gets paid out at resurrection and any character with short term counts can't be deleted until those counts are paid for or they decay.

Alternatively, upon deletion, the bounty for any short term count is automatically deducted from that account's bank balance unless there aren't enough funds to pay for it, forcing the PK to keep his dead PK until he's able to afford the pay out.
 
#18
-Why half of the bounty price? So that if the Red uses their own alternate character to kill themselves, they still suffer a net loss of gold. A 15,000 gold bounty would award their alternate character 7,500 gold, and they would still have lost a net of 7,500 gold.
huge logic error here.

there is no loss its always a gain. the money is already lost.

bountys just dont work for that reason
 
#19
huge logic error here.

there is no loss its always a gain. the money is already lost.

bountys just dont work for that reason
I see text quoted and replied to. But I have no clue wtf you are saying.. except for the end where you keep saying "bountys don't work for that reason." ..
I'm not getting what reason? wtf am I missing here. It could be, because I'm tweaked out of my fcking mind from huffing paint chips. *shrugs

+1 to the person who noted that bounties should be paid only after Rez cost was paid, (to prevent cashing and deleting said char)...
although I think a better solution has always been to have the bounty price set by people who were pked. They get to declare how much of a price they want to put on their pkers head(upto a certain limit)

also yea I'll take the free bag of potions, weapon and armor as long as there all GM just bag em and leave them at my house
 
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