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Stealth - Needs an overhaul?

#41
Big picture is a little hard to see when you only look at it through the eyes of a mage?
I play 3 stealthers (Archer, Fencer/Poisoner, Thief/THunter) and 0 mages, so far (I'll have a summoner and a PvP tank mage at some point, but not now).

I'm looking at it through the eyes of a stealther... I've seen stealthers be so OP on so many other shards I don't want that to happen here.

Yes, mages are versatile, that's what Magery does. Mages can stealth, too, by the way.

We obviously have diverging opinions, but if you want to be taken seriously, try to avoid fallacious argumentation.

they would have to rehide and wait to be able to even try the attack again if it failed
Well yeah, that's how a surprise attack works, you get one shot at it and if it fails, you're not surprising anyone anymore... It's basically the same line of thought as "you're not hidden if your opponent knows where you're hiding", in the sense that "you can't surprise someone who is expecting you".

Maybe I'm getting you wrong (feel free to correct me if that's the case), but you seem to want stealthers to be able to use backstab attacks, then to reset out of combat if they fail to hit or kill their target the first time around, then hide+stealth again while their opponent would be unable to reveal them (without Detect Hidden skill) even if they know where they're hiding, so they can rinse/repeat with another backstab attack, despite logically having lost their surprise effect upon their first (failed) attack and despite their opponent literally knowing the exact tile they're hiding at.

Again, in a 1 on 1 scenario, this doesn't seem too OP, since the time it takes to reset also allows the opponent to reset (or run away if they don't want to fight), too, but as soon as you consider multiple stealthies working together, this can only result in insta-kills and very boring gameplay where people will get ganked out of nowhere all the time by stealth squads.

Server being in beta, in the way that it was, resulted in a lot of things being overlooked that are only now coming to light.
If by that, you mean that "PvP Stealth" was overlooked, I think you are mistaken, it was discussed over and over again and it was decided not to make Stealth a game-breaking skill, which was a good decision, in my opinion. It may not be a decision that pleases you, but that's how it is and I hope it stays this way.

However, if you meant something else, please be more specific.

As I've said before, the only change I'd like to see with Hiding/Stealth is the Hiding range and/or Stealth timer being lowered at higher skill levels.

As I've also said in this thread, I agree that Reveal might be too strong and that its radius should scale with one's Detect Hidden and/or Tracking skill, but that Reveal should still always reveal someone hiding on the exact tile the mage casting the spell targets, for the obvious reason I've mentioned before.

Sadly, you can't seem to be bothered to say if you even agree with those suggestions and instead chose to resort to fallacious argumentation, I don't see this discussion becoming a constructive one if you keep doing that.

Your concerns were voiced in this thread in August and countless times in Discord and the decision was taken not to have Stealth be completely OP on this shard and I agree with that decision, looking at it through the eyes of a stealther.
 
#42
which of the three is your favorite to play? to me this seems to be the compromise:

a. pvm: allow backstab from hiding or stealth atter 3-5 seconds after hiding to speed up gameplay

-possibly increase spec bonus from 25% chance to 50%

-possibly remove bleed cap or raise it to 50%

-increase chance to hide when in combat or reduce the distance needed to hide

b. pvp:
spell: require mage + detect hidden for reveal spell (match hiding). lower effectiveness of the spell

like magery/2 equal % chance to reveal vs hiding (or just use detect hidden)

-possibly decrease stealth time after hiding to 5 from 10 (or start at 10 and minus 1 second per 10 points from 120... like 10 seconds at 80, 9 at 90, 8 at 100 etc)
 
#43
Right now my idea to allow back stab in pvp was a counter to leaving stealth in its broken form where any noob mage, with zero skills spent to reveal someone, can negate another players 200 skill points spent JUST to be hidden. reveal spell at best should have a 50% chance to reveal an Invisible mage of equal skill. Knowing where someone is in general does not mean you can see them, Should we link some of the old photos of "Find the Sniper" or worse "where is the cat"? As it is a mage has an aoe effect with that spell, they can cast where you were and get you revealed several steps away.

It is one simple idea really. Having 200 skill trumped by zero skill is broken. Even OSI figured that out eventually.

And no that line you clipped was not in regard to stealth pvp, thanks.
 
#44
Having 200 skill trumped by zero skill is broken.
  • The 200 skill points would only really be negated if a mage could reveal you before you initially broke stealth.
  • As long as you are hidden and stealthing around, before attacking, the 200 skill points serve their purpose.
  • After you attack and reveal yourself, you've lost the surprise effect, rendering Hiding+Stealth obsolete.
  • If, after revealing yourself, you run half a screen away and hide "in plain sight", you're not really hidden.

Do you disagree with any of those statements and/or think they should work differently and if so, how and why?
 
#46
  • The 200 skill points would only really be negated if a mage could reveal you before you initially broke stealth.
  • If, after revealing yourself, you run half a screen away and hide "in plain sight", you're not really hidden.

Do you disagree with any of those statements and/or think they should work differently and if so, how and why?
These are the two that you seem to have issue with. Using hide has the same effect as being invisible. Game even says "something invisible".
If you don't think that stealth should be buffed to be useable in another fashion, like backstab in pvp, then simply making it where as Oroe has said.

A mage should not have the added bonus of getting to negate hiding and stealth. Revealing a mage, where it becomes a skill v skill% chance is fine. As it is a mage just wins the end no skill v skill.
 
#49
damnit I could have sworn I responded to this thread already. I most not have saved.
recap of what I put:


-stealth is a slippery slope, so care needs to be taken with balancing it.
-10second hide to stealth time is painfully boring and unfun. IMO reduce it to 7seconds.
-melee stealth users could use a lil PvM boost. Increase special attack damage cap on melee weapons.(ie bleeds, ect)
-for poison users. increase chance to proc poison. increase chance to save poison charge. automatically upgrade poison 1 level if applied from stealth.
 
#50
Stealth and hiding are about getting into or avoiding combat in the first place. The idea that a hider/stealther should be able to run around a corner and vanish from combat without means of being revealed unless the revealing player has invested 200 specific skill points is so incredibly obtuse.

Also, backstab builds avoid all mechanics and most of the danger associated with farming. You auto once from stealth, run a few stepa, and hide. You are invisible for like 90% of the time youre farming. They shouldn't be doing the same dps as other pvm builds. And they absolutely shoudnt be one-shoting anything but possibly very low level monsters.

Hiding and stealth are both fine.
 
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#51
Also, if you want to stick with the silly skill point to skill point comparison, if hiders can't be revealed, then their 100 skill points are countering all 700 of the skill points of the other player.
 
#52
If pvm stealthers really need to be buffed, they should get a chance to proc a critical strike of +50% damage on normal autos. Something to improve damage when not hidden. Putting more damage into their single strike from stealth is very unhealthy.
 
#55
  • The 200 skill points would only really be negated if a mage could reveal you before you initially broke stealth.
  • As long as you are hidden and stealthing around, before attacking, the 200 skill points serve their purpose.
  • After you attack and reveal yourself, you've lost the surprise effect, rendering Hiding+Stealth obsolete.
  • If, after revealing yourself, you run half a screen away and hide "in plain sight", you're not really hidden.

Do you disagree with any of those statements and/or think they should work differently and if so, how and why?
I don't agree because we have a cooldown to wait after hiding in order to stealth. My whole point was based off of hiding in front of a mage and that mage takes 1 second to cast Reveal while the hider has 10 seconds to wait at GM move. Then even at GM sometimes foot prints show out location
 
#56
My whole point was based off of hiding in front of a mage and that mage takes 1 second to cast Reveal while the hider has 10 seconds to wait at GM move. Then even at GM sometimes foot prints show out location
As I've said many times before, if you "hide in plain sight" without breaking LoS, you aren't really hidden to begin with, thus I think it would make sense that a mage could Wis Quas you before you can stealth away.

As for footprints, unless it changed since the beta, they only appear when you're down to 5 steps or less, so as long as you refresh stealth with 6+ steps remaining, they shouldn't appear.
 
#57
1) fix footprints, now 100 stealth gives only 9 steps without prints.
2) can ditch the footprints at all

my thoughts on next overhaul are like this:
its either reduced reveal chance, or keep 100% reveal and allow stealthing right after hiding. I could sacrifice 5 from 15 stealth steps for immediate stealth-walking after hiding.
 
#58
Just moved to this shard. So far im loving it. However i just realized a mage with out detect hidden can reveal my 200 points of hide stealth and they dont even have to cast it directly on my tile. Wooof that was a big surprise.

Perhaps if the stealther has resist spells the chance to be revealed can go down significantly? It seems pretty ridiculous to me that someone with 100 magery can reveal someone with 200 stealth/hide every time.

here are my suggestions.

1. make the spell be direct tile only. No area reveal
2. Have a check against magic resist. If the stealther has 100 resist and the mage has 100 magery then 25% chance to reveal seems balanced
3. Get rid of the waiting to stealth time and the foot prints. This pretty much ruins stealth.

However on the flip Side i do understand that stealth can be a slippery slope and who wants to play a shard where everyone is hidden the entire time..

Here is what you have to combat this.

1. red mage aoe spells
2. detect hidden with area
3. tracking
4. the benefit of traveling in a group
5. if revealed the stealther cant go immediately back into hiding (no smokebombs here)