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Vigiles/Watchman/Posse system to foster anti-PK activity

#1
While watching Tombstone, it occured to me that perhaps a system could be developed that offered a fairly immersive player-manages process for seeking and punishing murderers.

My initial concept was that of a sheriff's posse, wherein a group of players (party? Entire guild? All players within a specific radius?) could flag themselves as part of a posse/king's watch/Watchman/etc, which would have special authority to find, track, and punish murderers.

The simple design would probably be that any murderer killed by a member of the posse would immediately suffer some extraordinary penalty; stat loss, massive resurrection penalty, actual jailing for x hours, termination of resurrection/banking access for x hours, whatever could be deemed appropriate. They have to wear "leg chains" which drains stamina when running?

The advanced design could be something far more dramatic and hopefully a lot of fun. Perhaps a posse member with tracking and forensic evaluation could actually limit recall and gate access privileges, forcing the murderer to actually flee for his safety on foot or mounted, with no instant-logout even in his own home? It would ideally become a source of great consternation for a character to suddenly come to the realization that he's been flagged as the target of a posse; it COULD be quite the oh-shit moment. "They know where I am, they are coming to get me, and I've got no easy escape." I like to imagine a PK trapped in a dungeon, with no ability to use the gates or recall to escape,, with a posse systematically searching for him.

I wouldn't be a big fan of rewarding posse members with money or items, to keep the potential for abuse to a minimum. I also don't know if it's necessarily fair to take a PK out of the game completely for any significant length of time, it's a precedent that's not been set on Outlands at all yet and would require careful consideration.

Systems like limiting target recall and gate usage might be abused to cripple nearby PKs without actually intending to bring them to justice; I wouldn't want a group forming a "posse" in order to avoid being attacked; it should be an offensive tool, not defensive. Perhaps a posse could only be formed by a town NPC guardsman in town, and only last a certain period of time before being disbanded?

This could tie in to the terrible virtue systems OSI originally developed; a JUSTICE virtue which allows for progressive punishments as your JUSTICE virtue increases through some process; players with high JUSTICE would essentially be the "Sheriffs" of Outlands, and be called upon to form and direct posses when needed.

In all honesty it's probably a very silly idea. I just know you guys are contemplating changes to the PK system, and I also know you guys love interesting and weird new systems to implement within the UO world, so I figured I'd throw my hat in the ring.
 
#2
This is a reactive solution and relies on an ideal scenario playing out. I don't see it having the intended outcome when implemented. The current issues with PKs needs a proactive solution. Never, in the history of UO, has a solution that relies on players being proactive had results.

For example... I could clear a dungeon with 4-5 other Reds. It takes 5-10 minutes. We can hit any location with no warning and be gone before any group could organize. That's assuming a group was even online and remotely ready to react.

The solution does not exist in these types of systems, but in systems that create more risk for PKs the more the kill in a certain amount of time. Imagine if a PKer acquired stat loss based on the number of kills in the last x hours. After clearing a dungeon they would think twice about hitting another, because their risk has been amplified. We need proactive solutions like that which also create meaningful choice for the PKer and allow them to assume the amount of risk they are willing to take.
 
#3
This is a reactive solution and relies on an ideal scenario playing out. I don't see it having the intended outcome when implemented. The current issues with PKs needs a proactive solution. Never, in the history of UO, has a solution that relies on players being proactive had results.

For example... I could clear a dungeon with 4-5 other Reds. It takes 5-10 minutes. We can hit any location with no warning and be gone before any group could organize. That's assuming a group was even online and remotely ready to react.

The solution does not exist in these types of systems, but in systems that create more risk for PKs the more the kill in a certain amount of time. Imagine if a PKer acquired stat loss based on the number of kills in the last x hours. After clearing a dungeon they would think twice about hitting another, because their risk has been amplified. We need proactive solutions like that which also create meaningful choice for the PKer and allow them to assume the amount of risk they are willing to take.
None of what you say is really incorrect, but that's not really what this suggestion was designed to do anyway.
 
#4
Its always the same 4-5 people that keep posting about "rampant pking". I've died 3 or 4 times to PKs since launch. Not sure how you keep dying so much.

You want a dungeon that doesn't have PKs in it? Try shelter island.
 
#5
Its always the same 4-5 people that keep posting about "rampant pking". I've died 3 or 4 times to PKs since launch. Not sure how you keep dying so much.

You want a dungeon that doesn't have PKs in it? Try shelter island.
I've still only died twice to PKs. I'm speaking for the silent majority that don't enjoy trolls ganging up on them... because I really enjoy this server and want to see it sustain the current population. You guys really need to drop the whole idea that the people dying are the ones complaining. The people most impacted by this are the ones who will quit silently while people wonder why the population falls in a few months.
 
#7
But Kilgu.... the newbies!

I do think there is an imbalance currently in how much a PK can farm vs teh risk, which needs to be addressed, but lets not confuse that with make PK'n go away. It should not be a form of farming higher than that of the lowly bard... I kid! But it shouldn't be the most proficient farming method.
 
#9
there are many who would disagree.. but PK'n also comes with negative effects on population, so regardless if it's 1 or 1a, it definitely shouldn't be if we want a strong, healthy population.
 
#10
A similar idea is to create a super npc made to kill reds,it could have a guard design style. They must be mounted in horses to be fast in chase . you can call then using a horn in your bag. each blow of the horn spaw 5 paladins.
Only blues can use it.
You can buy a horn with a guard for 25 gp
 
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reb

Apprentice
#13
ive posted something similar about making antis viable by letting them actually know that a murder happened.
totally disagree with statloss etc though. if a system of good vs evil was working then we should actually try and lift penalties on reds, not increasing them, because the playersbase would already self regulate.
would a system like that ever work here? i dont know, would i be willing to play an anti instead of a red? yes, i just need to have easy access to pvp thats all.

at this point im kinda getting more interested in just limiting the amount of murders that can be commited per account per 24h.
the goal is to limit the amount of damage and 3-5 counts an evening would just do that. reds also picking valuable targets and we could stop discriminating the playstyle.
in the end, even with permadeath for reds, there still will be groups of reds cleaning whole dungeons and most suggestions i read here are terrible (i like the foundation of yours).
 

Airicx

Apprentice
#14
Or they stop bothering, in which case everyone wins
Ain't gonna happen bro. And if it did, it wouldn't be because everyone was happy. And if it did the server would lose a significant amount of players.

So yeah, all you're really talking about is yourself.
 
#15
Ain't gonna happen bro. And if it did, it wouldn't be because everyone was happy. And if it did the server would lose a significant amount of players.

So yeah, all you're really talking about is yourself.
I'm pretty sure a tiny amount would be lost, only 52/2000 were actively red last check. I've also seen plenty of evidence that people have already quit because some of those 52 are griefing newbs, so technically they do damage to the server population and bring 0 value. No one wakes up and says they can't wait to be killed repeatedly today with no chance to fight back.

Truth be told, I only hunt dungeons/islands and have a scout character set up 24/7 so I've only been PK'd while naked afk or running around on an alt taming horses naked. I just don't want to see a mass exodus like oldschool UO before trammel saved the game.
 

Airicx

Apprentice
#16
Whoa...

Are you telling me that 52 pks out of 2000 is too much?!

Jesus Christ, do you need a tissue?

The way people like you are whining I thought it was going to be way worse than that.

And where is the evidence that people are quitting? And if some have over a 3% PK population, then good riddance, the game isnt for you.

And if less than 52 people quit and there are 52 pks, then that means AT WORST more players came to the server for pking than those that quit.

And you have a chance to fight back. You just choose not to. And I'm not even a PK saying that, Trammy.
 
#17
Whoa...

Are you telling me that 52 pks out of 2000 is too much?!

Jesus Christ, do you need a tissue?

The way people like you are whining I thought it was going to be way worse than that.
Only takes 3 to wipe a dungeon of newb dexers leveling up then camp them at the healer
 
#18
I was talking to a friend I used to play UO with long ago, telling him to join this server. He read the forums and told me that there were a lot of people whining about getting pked. He said that when he first played UO, the first time he ventured out of town he got pked. His response was, "Holy shit, that was awesome! I'm going to get good at this game and get my revenge." And we did. Years later that guild moved to Seige when we did.

Different people, I guess. Victims vs victors.
Sure, and his 15th time I bet he was still super happy.

No one is bitching about their first death in UO dude. Are you not even reading what people write in these threads? There are PKs out there chain killing and camping people skilling up in newb areas. People rollin in packs of 3 on discord wiping out entire dungeons hourly because its better to farm people than mobs.

But sure, just keep pretending that's healthy for a server. That all of those people are like your friend and signing up for the nearest masochism convention after discovering their love of being murdered in UO over and over on their pve character against packs of reds.

I'll keep doing my best to counter it by running around warning everyone on my main when my scout sees another farm team roll in to pulma/whatever dungeon is this week.
 

Airicx

Apprentice
#19
Sure, and his 15th time I bet he was still super happy.
He didn't give up or cry to the Gods to smite them, if that's what you mean. He - like I - took it upon ourselves to improve and win. And we did. And we were never top shelf pvpers, merely adequate.

Also, your post seems to presume always losing. It seems very "victim" to identify solely as a loser every time. It seems very defeatist to assume that the PK always wins....

No one is bitching about their first death in UO dude.
No, you want ZERO death. That's even worse.

Are you not even reading what people write in these threads?
I am, and it's very sad to see such weak whiney displays. It's like you can see which people cried to a authority figure anytime someone said something they didn't like versus the people who learn to function in a world where not everyone exists to serve your whims.

There are PKs out there chain killing and camping people skilling up in newb areas.
You mean the 52 reds on the entire planet hog every spot up endlessly holding it and the other 1900 people hostage? Dang, that's impressive!

People rollin in packs of 3 on discord wiping out entire dungeons hourly because its better to farm people than mobs.
Is it? So let's see who has the biggest houses and the most gold on the server. If it isn't the reds then you are full of it.

CHECKMATE.

But sure, just keep pretending that's healthy for a server.
Not only am I skeptical that a 3% PK population is bad for a server, I'm skeptical that you give a rat's ass about anyone other than yourself. I'm sorry, but your post reeks of entitlement, it doesn't reek of charity.

That all of those people are like your friend and signing up for the nearest masochism convention after discovering their love of being murdered in UO over and over on their pve character against packs of reds.
It wasn't love of losing, although I suppose it makes sense that a "victim" mentality would see it that way. It was love of a challenge. It was love of a game that took more than 3 brain cells to function in.

I'll keep doing my best to counter it by running around warning everyone on my main when my scout sees another farm team roll in to pulma/whatever dungeon is this week.
Good, do it. Now that my farming area has seen an uptick in PKs, I've employed a scout as well, as well as changing what I am doing when I farm so that my chances of getting away are greater. And it's already working. Wow, imagine that. I largely created my own solution without having to ask the Gods to rethink their plan for the world on my behalf...

Time until yet another "Please Ban Pks" thread is shut down.....

(That's your answer, BTW. Prayers denied.)
 
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#20
@Airicx You wanna know why "yet another please ban pks" thread is gonna get shut down? Because you (and a bunch of other "l33t PKers") don't bring anything to the table when it comes to those discussions, derail the threads into a huge sack of bile, insulting and namecalling people like this is some kind of unmoderated trash channel on a random Discord, and what started as a civil productive discussion turns out into a crapshoot that needs to be closed before things escalate too much;

At that point, the devs are forced to close those threads to stop people like you from doing that kind of crap over and over, extending threads for pages over pages of random useless flames instead of (not even good suggestions, but there are some interesting ones nonetheless) trying to have a civil conversation...sounds better than attacking anyone who thinks even slightly differently from you, that'd be a good start imo.

The main devs stated (on the latest Dev Debrief) that the reds are starting to be a pretty big issue and people are quitting because of the grief-y type of said PKs that run around steamrolling newbs and are every day more prevalent; They also said that they're gonna adjust and scale the systems already in place (as it was always meant to scale from the beginning based on pop) because right now reds have no real drawback for ruining a bunch of people's playtime and basically making many others straight up quit (if not the shard completely, logout for the day).

If the devs clearly stating those things still don't ring a couple of bells in your head, and you wanna believe your own self-told story that people want Trammel (there is no middle-ground for players like you it seems) and all those people whining are just trying to bend the devs' will or whatever...be my guest, but atleast those people who are "complaining" don't go around insulting/flaming/derailing a thread about suggestions/ideas that the devs are free to implement or not.
 
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