Fix CCC and DF

[Cleary]

Please enjoy my ever-growing collection of screenshots that show how unbalanced CCCs and DFs are at the moment.

Much more often than not, the CCC and DF scoreboard will show a single large guild getting tons of points for doing nothing. Zero kills, zero fighting, just free rewards.

The players in these guilds are getting general pvp points and event specific pvp points which are used for mounts, deco, cloth, etc, which can net a lot of gold.
They're also getting battle commendations that are redeemed for rare & special loot.
They're also getting guild prestige, which periodically grants guild favors.

... All for just standing somewhere for 30 minutes.

 

[clx]

Unfortunately making changes to these in isolation will accomplish nothing - I sympathise with your point, but these events are currently all guilds have to be competitive about - about controlling, about winning, etc.

 

[Cleary]

Unfortunately making changes to these in isolation will accomplish nothing - I sympathise with your point, but these events are currently all guilds have to be competitive about - about controlling, about winning, etc.

My point is that there are no guilds being competitive about this, its just one giant guild rolling in and sitting. Big, multi-guild fights just don't happen as they used to. If that was happening at all, I'd agree with you.

Sometimes you'll see a large guild's dominance of the point interrupted by enough smaller groups that they don't win entirely uncontested, but they still ultimately win because its 10-15 people from one large guild against multiple small groups. They take minimal deaths, and get a handful of kills. The difference in score between the highest zerg guild member and the highest non-zerg guild member underlines the lack of true contest.

Its an event that isn't being used except for a handful of people who are just exploiting it.

 

[clx]

Like I say, it's part of a wider problem with the way PvP is structured on Outlands. The event system and rotation made sense when it was a 500 player shard. It doesn't anymore.

 

[clx]

People are missing the point of what CCC is - or at least what it has become.

On a server like Outlands, everything a player may want is available in multiple ways - solo players can get the best items through solo activities, guilds can get them with very little risk. There's nothing for guilds to 'dominate'. No resource to lock down. No territory to control. Some of the most important aspects of what makes this game great. CCC has become a replacement for that. It's the time and place you stand at to prove your guild is the strongest/best organised on the server, and that other guilds are scared to come there and fight you - and you do control a resource to an extent - the unique CCC horses and cloth.

CCC is the one piece of 'meaning' for PvPers on this server, holding it actually means something.

I realise this isn't 'fun' for individual players, but the server needs something to replace this before it is changed.

As the great Zerhwergfwqe4g2wqfqew of Wind said in the year 613 - "CCC is a guild politics event"

 

[WildStalin]

People are missing the point of what CCC is - or at least what it has become.

On a server like Outlands, everything a player may want is available in multiple ways - solo players can get the best items through solo activities, guilds can get them with very little risk. There's nothing for guilds to 'dominate'. No resource to lock down. No territory to control. Some of the most important aspects of what makes this game great. CCC has become a replacement for that. It's the time and place you stand at to prove your guild is the strongest/best organised on the server, and that other guilds are scared to come there and fight you - and you do control a resource to an extent - the unique CCC horses and cloth.

CCC is the one piece of 'meaning' for PvPers on this server, holding it actually means something.

I realise this isn't 'fun' for individual players, but the server needs something to replace this before it is changed.

As the great Zerhwergfwqe4g2wqfqew of Wind said in the year 613 - "CCC is a guild politics event"

I dont pvp much but the reasoning here strikes me as well thought out.... good luck brainstorming where to go from here!

 

[GFORCE]

someone or something (i dont judge) should get a crowd together and beat the crud out of those hecking rapscallions

 

[Akasha]

My point is that there are no guilds being competitive about this, its just one giant guild rolling in and sitting. Big, multi-guild fights just don't happen as they used to. If that was happening at all, I'd agree with you.

Sometimes you'll see a large guild's dominance of the point interrupted by enough smaller groups that they don't win entirely uncontested, but they still ultimately win because its 10-15 people from one large guild against multiple small groups. They take minimal deaths, and get a handful of kills. The difference in score between the highest zerg guild member and the highest non-zerg guild member underlines the lack of true contest.

Its an event that isn't being used except for a handful of people who are just exploiting it.

Bro you have literally no idea what you are talking about. For real. CCC has multiple 2 and 3 and even 4 guild fights ,especially in prime time where there are guilds that bring 12 , 15 and 18 at at a time.

 

[Akasha]

My point is that there are no guilds being competitive about this, its just one giant guild rolling in and sitting. Big, multi-guild fights just don't happen as they used to. If that was happening at all, I'd agree with you.

Sometimes you'll see a large guild's dominance of the point interrupted by enough smaller groups that they don't win entirely uncontested, but they still ultimately win because its 10-15 people from one large guild against multiple small groups. They take minimal deaths, and get a handful of kills. The difference in score between the highest zerg guild member and the highest non-zerg guild member underlines the lack of true contest.

Its an event that isn't being used except for a handful of people who are just exploiting it.

This guy said exploiting..... gtfoh. Like for real. Get the fuck out of here.

 

[Cleary]

Bro you have literally no idea what you are talking about. For real. CCC has multiple 2 and 3 and even 4 guild fights ,especially in prime time where there are guilds that bring 12 , 15 and 18 at at a time.

During prime time, so like once a day, you're right. Look at the screenshots, I didn't Photoshop those. Check in results when you're on, it's always lopsided.

gtfoh

Excellent and constrictive, thanks. You do know the word exploit has applications beyond exploiting a bug, right?

 

[Cleary]

People are missing the point of what CCC is - or at least what it has become.

On a server like Outlands, everything a player may want is available in multiple ways - solo players can get the best items through solo activities, guilds can get them with very little risk. There's nothing for guilds to 'dominate'. No resource to lock down. No territory to control. Some of the most important aspects of what makes this game great. CCC has become a replacement for that. It's the time and place you stand at to prove your guild is the strongest/best organised on the server, and that other guilds are scared to come there and fight you - and you do control a resource to an extent - the unique CCC horses and cloth.

CCC is the one piece of 'meaning' for PvPers on this server, holding it actually means something.

I realise this isn't 'fun' for individual players, but the server needs something to replace this before it is changed.

As the great Zerhwergfwqe4g2wqfqew of Wind said in the year 613 - "CCC is a guild politics event"

I can understand this thinking, but this isn't how it practically works. 75% of the time It's one guild harvesting points without doing anything. Like yes, congrats, your guild (often by sheer number of participants) wins. The screenshots show this like beyond clearly.

I know you're passionate about CCC, I know I'm not going to change that, and I know we just disagree.

That doesn't change the fact that FP functions the same way. Huge numbers? You win. Congrats, groups of 1-3 aren't going to waste their time, so you can harvest points all you like, don't let anyone else enjoy the content. As I said initially for both events, it's not uncommon to see zero kills, zero deaths, zero challenge or effort, just sitting there collecting points doing nothing.

Im confident Luthius and Owyn had something other than a single small group repeatedly benefiting from doing nothing in mind when making the event. Needs to be modified.

 

[AreYouKidden]

I can understand this thinking, but this isn't how it practically works. 75% of the time It's one guild harvesting points without doing anything. Like yes, congrats, your guild (often by sheer number of participants) wins. The screenshots show this like beyond clearly.

I know you're passionate about CCC, I know I'm not going to change that, and I know we just disagree.

That doesn't change the fact that FP functions the same way. Huge numbers? You win. Congrats, groups of 1-3 aren't going to waste their time, so you can harvest points all you like, don't let anyone else enjoy the content. As I said initially for both events, it's not uncommon to see zero kills, zero deaths, zero challenge or effort, just sitting there collecting points doing nothing.

Im confident Luthius and Owyn had something other than a single small group repeatedly benefiting from doing nothing in mind when making the event. Needs to be modified.

Do you have actual suggestions on how to modify it, so it's still guild based, and yet has equal numbers/skill (so it's fair) - and everyone who comes out gets to participate, and doesn't have to sit out, because another team couldn't field the right numbers?

 

[Epic]

You have to incentivize fielding smaller numbers. Capped rewards for guilds and scaling down capture points based on how many guild members would be a start. Make sitting on the point with 10+ not worth it.

 

[Pleonexia]

I can understand this thinking, but this isn't how it practically works. 75% of the time It's one guild harvesting points without doing anything. Like yes, congrats, your guild (often by sheer number of participants) wins. The screenshots show this like beyond clearly.

I know you're passionate about CCC, I know I'm not going to change that, and I know we just disagree.

That doesn't change the fact that FP functions the same way. Huge numbers? You win. Congrats, groups of 1-3 aren't going to waste their time, so you can harvest points all you like, don't let anyone else enjoy the content. As I said initially for both events, it's not uncommon to see zero kills, zero deaths, zero challenge or effort, just sitting there collecting points doing nothing.

Im confident Luthius and Owyn had something other than a single small group repeatedly benefiting from doing nothing in mind when making the event. Needs to be modified.

alot of the time the #s are actually pretty low but if noone comes to fight noone comes to fight many guilds could easily come with more #s including your alliance. the problem isnt within the 1 group getting rewards but other groups not showing correct? so why isnt more groups showing? lets get to the cause rather than just pointing at the result. what would it take to get that huge path alliance to show? syn? etc

heres the latest ccc:
4 guys noone showed, why?

 

[Epic]

I believe it's more than just a numbers thing. The pvp quality at CCC is just not very good, a lot of people don't like running around for 30 mins, loading 1 spell and clicking bars. It's the same for TS's and DF's. There are a lot of issues with pvp mechanics on this server that are just not enjoyable and guilds running with large numbers just make the issues worse. Kiting and railing is the most efficient way to compete, i've talked to a lot of pvpers i know that don't participate on outlands, because to them it is not fun and they would rather do other things with their time. Groups also do not show up to CCC because most people have limited time and would have to plan to attend CCC for that 30 mins and most of them aren't going to drop what they're doing in hope that they will get even numbered fights.

 

[AreYouKidden]

I believe it's more than just a numbers thing. The pvp quality at CCC is just not very good, a lot of people don't like running around for 30 mins, loading 1 spell and clicking bars. It's the same for TS's and DF's. There are a lot of issues with pvp mechanics on this server that are just not enjoyable and guilds running with large numbers just make the issues worse. Kiting and railing is the most efficient way to compete, i've talked to a lot of pvpers i know that don't participate on outlands, because to them it is not fun and they would rather do other things with their time. Groups also do not show up to CCC because most people have limited time and would have to plan to attend CCC for that 30 mins and most of them aren't going to drop what they're doing in hope that they will get even numbered fights.

I actually find Townstruggles as my favorite event, mainly because I feel like the area is limited, people can't really run out of it, and you are pushed into constant conflicts, even if it ends up being ebolt rails etc. But also because I just am not on for long periods of time at night, and I can queue TS' solo and get put on a team.

I think Stygian should be a similar feel for me, but finding 2 other people that are competitive, who'll join rarely because I'm never on, is near impossible, and que'n up solo just feels like a quick way to a guaranteed loss (I admit I haven't done it more than a small handful of times)

The nature of scheduled PvP, while it's great in many ways, is also bad in the sense that even if I like one of the events more than others, I rarely get to play it, because it may not be available during my 2-3 hours of playtime. I'd almost rather be able to que' up for an event, and when it's full, it kicks off. But I can also imagine many ways that'd be a cluster...

For CCC - I just don't really enjoy mounted PvP, nor running around the large land mass - in what almost always ends up being a landslide victory. But even beyond that, what is the purpose to the PvP? Just rewards doesn't do it for me - I've gotten what I want out of PvP rewards. When you do get some pretty close teams, it can be a ton of fun. I'm not sure how you fix that, or if you'd even want to - UO is a numbers game in PvP, I don't think there's anything wrong with it, just the way it is. Plus my guild Path - comprised mostly of dexxers, or people who don't want to competitively PvP just for the sake of it, leaves me with few team mates at these events if I did choose to do them.

I know many people have said they'd PvP more if there was a purpose for the PvP, and they could do it when they wanted - and I share the same sentiment - that said, any system put in, if there isn't regular fights, and fun results, or a purpose beyond just rewards, people will just stop going again. I'm not sure how you find a proper fix for it all to be honest, especially when on a limited playtime, I feel obliged to spend that time leveling XP systems, so I get some progression week to week.

 

[Vivint]

Always on is the solution with a server that has this population. The change to meteor swarm and fields eliminated the few anti zerg mechanics that did exist.

 

[clx]

I can understand this thinking, but this isn't how it practically works. 75% of the time It's one guild harvesting points without doing anything. Like yes, congrats, your guild (often by sheer number of participants) wins. The screenshots show this like beyond clearly.

I know you're passionate about CCC, I know I'm not going to change that, and I know we just disagree.

That doesn't change the fact that FP functions the same way. Huge numbers? You win. Congrats, groups of 1-3 aren't going to waste their time, so you can harvest points all you like, don't let anyone else enjoy the content. As I said initially for both events, it's not uncommon to see zero kills, zero deaths, zero challenge or effort, just sitting there collecting points doing nothing.

Im confident Luthius and Owyn had something other than a single small group repeatedly benefiting from doing nothing in mind when making the event. Needs to be modified.

Bro, my thoughts on it are as such;

CCC is the only remaining expression on Outlands of the true genius of UO - something to stir some real emotions - not just collecting shiny items, but actual brotherhood in battle at the highest level; featuring anger, despair and humility in defeat, joy, pride and satisfaction in victory.
It enables you to actually control something in this game, through your own hard-work, dedication and team work. A resource that no one else can access. Control of an area that is yours. When you're in control, other guilds are afraid to even step foot in the zone.
What else are you actually playing for? To collect items? To be top of a leaderboard? To kill monsters? Does your UO experience really cap at that level? You're missing whole layers of what this game can offer. 'Fixing' CCC means removing the last vestige of what really makes this game great. Sure, it fucking sucks when you're stood there uncontested, or when you're trying to fight 2v15, but that's UO. There's nothing stopping you from eliminating that zerg - organise & defeat them until they give up or disband.

(I'm fine with sanitising CCC if something is put in to replace it in terms of resource/territorial control, as previously stated)

 

[Domnu]

Bro, my thoughts on it are as such;

CCC is the only remaining expression on Outlands of the true genius of UO - something to stir some real emotions - not just collecting shiny items, but actual brotherhood in battle at the highest level; featuring anger, despair and humility in defeat, joy, pride and satisfaction in victory.
It enables you to actually control something in this game, through your own hard-work, dedication and team work. A resource that no one else can access. Control of an area that is yours. When you're in control, other guilds are afraid to even step foot in the zone.
What else are you actually playing for? To collect items? To be top of a leaderboard? To kill monsters? Does your UO experience really cap at that level? You're missing whole layers of what this game can offer. 'Fixing' CCC means removing the last vestige of what really makes this game great. Sure, it fucking sucks when you're stood there uncontested, or when you're trying to fight 2v15, but that's UO. There's nothing stopping you from eliminating that zerg - organise & defeat them until they give up or disband.

(I'm fine with sanitising CCC if something is put in to replace it in terms of resource/territorial control, as previously stated)

A lot of us are simply too old to devote our limited gaming time to an event that is a complete wash four or five times per day (~80%). A large segment of active players don't participate in it right now because of how the event is structured.

I'm not advocating for changes, but I think it's important to keep in mind that the cost of having an uncapped event like CCC is that it's only legitimately contested maybe once per day (~20%).

Also, I would argue that "the true genius of UO - something to stir some real emotions - not just collecting shiny items, but actual brotherhood in battle at the highest level; featuring anger, despair and humility in defeat, joy, pride and satisfaction in victory." is also available in TS, which balances team size, are almost never dead, and result in close matches probably 80%-90% of the time.

 

[Puggles]

My only issue with CCC is seeing players that aren't involved in the fighting that can be used as scouts for guilds to be able to know the movements of enemy groups, but i'm not sure if there's a way to solve that.