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Mastery Chain Overhaul and Rebalances

AreYouKidden

Legendary
Now I am forced to either take dungeon damage links or boss damage links, this however limits the number of mobs I can get my damage bonus on.
That may be the entire point - to limit the amount of damage stacking links you can put into your chain, so you can't get 25 links all increasing your damage to every mob in the game - when the damage links were always intended to be situational so no one person was crazy over powered in every dungeon - we just always find clever ways around situational - like Damage to Poisoned - have someone else poison (or commit 30 points to your template - or just carry a poisoned weapon), damage to barded - have someone else bard..
 

guy

Neophyte
That may be the entire point - to limit the amount of damage stacking links you can put into your chain, so you can't get 25 links all increasing your damage to every mob in the game - when the damage links were always intended to be situational so no one person was crazy over powered in every dungeon - we just always find clever ways around situational - like Damage to Poisoned - have someone else poison (or commit 30 points to your template - or just carry a poisoned weapon), damage to barded - have someone else bard..

They are proposing that bard links are now only good for the bard that have the effect.

I like I said, I agree with the changes, but I disagree with the proposed rollout. Since I am a summoner taking advantage of the creature to poison damage, I would gladly take the new spell charge chance link. It is not guaranteed extra damage like the damage to poison, but it would be more useful in my template.
 
I just want to echo another opinion already listed here. I don't think the HP & Stam regen should have been removed from food satisfaction. If you combine this with the new horticulture cleanse pots for disease/bleed the potion loadout for dexers will start to get ridiculous. Here is what my loadout currently looks like (without the Stam Regen from food satisfaction):

20 Heal
25 Refresh
15 Cure
7 Resist
7 Strength
7 Agility

This is WITH 40 Alchemy, that is 81 damn potions I have to lug around EVERY RUN - don't you think this is excessive???? and it's only going to get worse with the new potions. A trip to the new Nusero expansion will easily consume 20 refresh potions in one run. There is not a lot of excess here. Hell, the cure potions only allow me to kill approximately 5-6 poison mobs before I have to worry about my supply.

Want to go to Darkmire or Petram as a Dexer? Minimum 30 Cure Potions needed.

Please reconsider adding back the Stam regen from the food satisfaction buff. - Or Buff Alchemy, add (Chance to not consume potion on use equal to your Alchemy Skill)
 

AreYouKidden

Legendary
I just want to echo another opinion already listed here. I don't think the HP & Stam regen should have been removed from food satisfaction. If you combine this with the new horticulture cleanse pots for disease/bleed the potion loadout for dexers will start to get ridiculous. Here is what my loadout currently looks like (without the Stam Regen from food satisfaction):

20 Heal
25 Refresh
15 Cure
7 Resist
7 Strength
7 Agility

This is WITH 40 Alchemy, that is 81 damn potions I have to lug around EVERY RUN - don't you think this is excessive???? and it's only going to get worse with the new potions. A trip to the new Nusero expansion will easily consume 20 refresh potions in one run. There is not a lot of excess here. Hell, the cure potions only allow me to kill approximately 5-6 poison mobs before I have to worry about my supply.

Want to go to Darkmire or Petram as a Dexer? Minimum 30 Cure Potions needed.

Please reconsider adding back the Stam regen from the food satisfaction buff. - Or Buff Alchemy, add (Chance to not consume potion on use equal to your Alchemy Skill)
That's less potions than my PvP loadout :p
I do think 20 refresh will be light - but also consider you can eat junk food every 30s to gain stamina back as well, doesn't have to be exclusively refresh pots.. And rotten meat stacks better than potions for item count.

Also - I agree - no need to remove the stat regens from food at all.
 

oroechimaru

Grandmaster
the stamina drain is not playable/fun imho. i'd probably not play lol. i dont want to pop a potion for every demon i kill this is silly.

please retool this to something better.
 

Nymaeron

Expert
I don't know a single dexxer would be taking 80 TasteID instead of a 80 SDI.

9% ss increase versus 5% ss increase + 20% SDI damage increase?

I'm not sure having tasteid buff extending with higher skill therefore is viable.
 

Basia

Master
Mages are currently broken, I've actually counted 42 FS's in a row at a boss... and that's only with 5 proc chance links, 4 bronze, 2 silver... 10 gold proc chance links is ridiculous, with all the mana we get back from the procs..
On my summoner with 10 gold proc chance links but only tier 8 eldritch, I was constantly out of mana and would sometimes go an entire boss without a proc. It was so unfun to play that I switched back to tamer. Mages are fine. If anything needs to be dialed back a bit, it's eldritch.
 
On my summoner with 10 gold proc chance links but only tier 8 eldritch, I was constantly out of mana and would sometimes go an entire boss without a proc. It was so unfun to play that I switched back to tamer. Mages are fine. If anything needs to be dialed back a bit, it's eldritch.
Nope, @AreYouKidden has it correct. Several different mages have come up to mobs I am fighting on multiple occasions and just chain cast FS over and over until they get a proc, thus taking looting rights. This happens to me as well as other dexers. I'm not sure what you are doing incorrectly, maybe ask in #PvM for advice?

Then again, your still T8, that's probably the diffference.
 

AreYouKidden

Legendary
On my summoner with 10 gold proc chance links but only tier 8 eldritch, I was constantly out of mana and would sometimes go an entire boss without a proc. It was so unfun to play that I switched back to tamer. Mages are fine. If anything needs to be dialed back a bit, it's eldritch.
I run void armor T12, eldritch book T13, and only 5 links.. And absolutely destroy stuff..
 

Basia

Master
Then again, your still T8, that's probably the diffference.
That was my point. :p High-tier eldritch makes a huge difference. People keep crying about "mages" but what they're really talking about is maxed eldritch summoners surrounded by mana wells.

For other mages, even with tier 13 void, mana is very much a feast or famine situation. Sometimes you get lucky with a handful of flamestrikes in a row, other times you cast one or two then spend 30 seconds trying to med while you're disrupted by AoE. Maybe you get enough flamestrikes to steal one mob but then you're out of mana so the dexxer next to you can steal the second one. Happens all the time.

Meanwhile, lest we forget, weapon hits are infinite with 0 downtime. With the swing speed stuff in this patch I'm sure we'll see some broken scaling.

Several different mages have come up to mobs I am fighting on multiple occasions and just chain cast FS over and over until they get a proc, thus taking looting rights. This happens to me as well as other dexers.
"Several." "A few." Lol.

Same can be said of stealth archers that steal loot rights with one shot every single time. Nerf dexxers!
 

Sindall

Neophyte
I have to start by saying a lot of what's being covered in this overhaul is fantastic, and in some cases long overdue, so thank you for addressing these systems. I've got a lot to say about the changes, but I'll admit I haven't had the time to really go in and test some of the links and other new stuff, but I like a lot of what's already there.

Taste ID/Spellbook and other caster changes:

Mostly looks good with Taste ID. I think others have mentioned the stamina and HP regen is not something they'd like to see go, and I agree generally, but the fact thatyou would now get SSI is the tradeoff. The swing speed is a huge boost, and I think tying that to a skill gives dexers something to consider in their templates. As others have said, that skill should be added to the dexer codex skill list.

Not sure I like the proposed mana refund cap change, but I see why it's being considered. I've managed to get the mythical non-stop casting on a mini boss, and it's awesome! I outdamaged everyone by a lot, and I'd be sad to see that kind of thing be a less likely occurance. However, if the plan is to push more diversity in terms of spellbooks, I'm okay with that. A T13 aspect, mana drain/vamp mage is already at a 39.5% refund rate. A surpassingly potent book puts you right about at the cap, so you can start seriously considering eminently potent power books, or really any decent combination, as viable because you'll hit the cap and any excess goes to additional damage.

I guess I still don't see a reason to take a material spellbook over a magic one because even with a superior mana regen rate, there is ZERO possibility of a damage boost. And the 10.5% mana refund chance difference is huge. If material spellbooks had some kind of damage boost, or charged chance/damage boost that scaled with the materials (1% charged chance 2.5% charged damage dullhide up to 10% chance 25% charged damage at avarhide) it would certainly give me more to think about.

I didn't realize that players were anywhere close to 100% charged spell chance, so my first thought was to take a look at what's possible. Even with the base of 10%, wrestling (up to 15%), SS stone (up to 12%), links (up to 15%), and mind blast grimoire (up to 40% on one spell) you still aren't at 100%. The new links change the possible numbers though up to 30%, which does exceed the cap but only for mind blast. Melee accuracy is in a similar situation as charged chance, and it's a good thing. Edit: I hadn't thought about water aspect adding up to a possible 24.5% charged spell chance, so with the new changes to links you can get pretty close to the cap with all spells and go way over with mind blast if you want.


Mastery chain link changes:

I like where this is going, and the balance of the new links will be interesting to see how it plays out. Melee special and damage sounds amazing, same with melee damage and AI. Really opens up some possibilities on the combined links. I need to hop on test to play around with these.

I do not like the proposed barded creature damage to only affect creatures under your bard effect. This discourages multiple bards from working together, especially at bosses. Maybe it would make more sense to have it only work if you have a minimum barding skill? The only reason I can see why this change was proposed is that someone must be exploiting the additional damage by running around with a bard, but not having the skill themselves. Smart, but working outside of the plans for the system. Please consider a different limiting factor on this link. The poisoned creature change wasn't nearly as drastic and seems balanced.

The dungeon specific damage links...I think it's an interesting idea, but I don't like that it seems to have the intent of players having different chains for different dungeons. Especially when you consider the base of other links you may want to enhance your character, these seem to be targeted for the super rich, or maybe those that only play in one dungeon or on the ocean. However, I think a system that allows for a character to ADD a dungeon specific chain to an existing bound chain at a similar MCDx5 cost, which allows for the player to add up to 10 damage to that dungeon links would be cool. It would let you sink MCDs, enhance your players, and if the unlocking of links were tied to gold earned in that specific dungeon, would make players get better where they're farming.

The only other thing that I think needs clarification is if the dungeon damage links are only going to enhance melee and cast spell damage, or if it includes followers, summons, traps, explode pots, and other sources of damage.
 
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oroechimaru

Grandmaster
My thoughts for template balance for dexxers due to unique awesome features of outlands making 720 templates difficult is introduce half feats like dnd and 1/4 feats for pvp

arms lore + anatomy /340 =
A. Effective alchemy bonus (longer potion durations etc)
B. Taste id bonus (defensive , regen etc)

this way players get 30-60 effectiveness in those skills and 1/2 of that in pvp.

this lets you invest points in other dexxer skills

i also think taste id if patched for speed needs to have 2-3x higher scaling from taste id rather than a flat 5 from food. Reward the taste if skill investments

also consider changing default potion timers to 4 minutes instead of 2 and half in pvp (so its capped at 2ish once pvp flagged then scales) would be huge dexxer qol.

Stamina regen is a major issue. If its removed from food it needs to be tied to anatomy or arms lore or the base needs an increase or pvm mechanics need a dramatic decrease to drain

i tried swords for 5min on test and logged off after spamming 4 pots at a demon that wasnt fun at all. I cant imagine it being fun to drink 50-100 potions every 30-60 minutes farming that is tooooo tedious.

alternatively mobs could regenerate stats in some fashion (arms lore corpse or anatomy corpse)

i still strongly feel 120 dex should scale bandage timers to 8s from 10s
 
Based on these replies it seems clear mages will never be happy until they have unlimited mana. Summoners are among, if not the, most overpowered build currently and cheapest/fastest to create. Crying about meditation time is just absurd. You have food, med links, mushrooms, material books, purple refund books, taste ID, med skill, and aspects that all recover mana but it will never be enough until you can dump 1000 mana at once, will it? Magery itself is the ultimate utility skill allowing you to switch instantaneously between offense, defense, pvm, pvp, whatever. No other class can do this.
 

AreYouKidden

Legendary
Based on these replies it seems clear mages will never be happy until they have unlimited mana. Summoners are among, if not the, most overpowered build currently and cheapest/fastest to create. Crying about meditation time is just absurd. You have food, med links, mushrooms, material books, purple refund books, taste ID, med skill, and aspects that all recover mana but it will never be enough until you can dump 1000 mana at once, will it? Magery itself is the ultimate utility skill allowing you to switch instantaneously between offense, defense, pvm, pvp, whatever. No other class can do this.
1000 mana is only 25 flame strikes, we are already achieving that mate.. MOAR POWER!
 
Based on these replies it seems clear mages will never be happy until they have unlimited mana. Summoners are among, if not the, most overpowered build currently and cheapest/fastest to create. Crying about meditation time is just absurd. You have food, med links, mushrooms, material books, purple refund books, taste ID, med skill, and aspects that all recover mana but it will never be enough until you can dump 1000 mana at once, will it? Magery itself is the ultimate utility skill allowing you to switch instantaneously between offense, defense, pvm, pvp, whatever. No other class can do this.
Summoners have material books... as if anyone ever wanted them! Cheapest/fastest build is most dexxer builds, sorry to disappoint you.
 
Please buff dexxers as much as it takes to make them stfu and stop them asking to nerf other templates. That's all that has to be done. It's a mystery to me how a group of players can be so fixated on another group of players, although they are in no way influencing each other. Obsessivey comparing themselves up to the point that they don't even talk about what would improve their gameplay, just how to alter someone elses gameplay in order for them to feel even.
 

AreYouKidden

Legendary
Please buff dexxers as much as it takes to make them stfu and stop them asking to nerf other templates. That's all that has to be done. It's a mystery to me how a group of players can be so fixated on another group of players, although they are in no way influencing each other. Obsessivey comparing themselves up to the point that they don't even talk about what would improve their gameplay, just how to alter someone elses gameplay in order for them to feel even.
Ironically some of us are mages, asking to be nerfed, because the power creep is ridiculous, and while I appreciate nuking everything is more fun, the difficulty of content, that staff has tried to add with Urukton, Undermountain, even Oss 4 gets trivialized by these classes that don't take damage for themselves, mainly because they damage down the mobs so fast, the mobs don't have time to really kill the tank pets..

If they buff dexxers to where mages/tamers are, you'll quickly find there is no content that is meaningful, nothing that is difficult - I mean people already solo Uruk & Undermountain, and Oss 4 all the time.. Then next we'll all be clamoring for more difficulty in dungeons.. If you bring high end mages/tamers back down to earth, it balances some of the content, not to mention doesn't create so much of a gap from the newer players, and the massively leveled up players.