PvM ruined by Reds

[Sargoth]

Some basic standpoints:
- I started playing recently (new player, 2 weeks).
- I play PvM only, when I see a PK, I run. I simply don't enjoy the clunky macro-oriented way of Ultima PvP.
- However I welcome Murderers as a part of the game, the risk, the danger.
- I play a Tamer/Dex.

The issue I have.
1) Reds are like a pest that has grown out of control. Every 15 minutes in a dungeon (lvl 1/2 - that's where I am) there is a either one or a group of reds coming. Either I manage to run, getting away with what I was able to farm in 15 mins... or I die, loosing everything. There is just too many of them.
2) There are PvP events which I avoid and I wait patiently for PvM ones (like Shrine corruption). Well those are overrun by Reds too. Today everyone got murdered at Spirituality corruption. The Red can "opt-in" to PvP, it's their choice to go for it. I have no such choice and I am forced at every corner (even PvM events) to fight. There are 2 corruptions per 24 hours which with a bit of luck I manage to catch one of them. And that is basically unplayable as a PvM anyway.
3) Which brings me to a 3rd point. Pets suck in PvP. My leveled Eldritch Drakes hit for 4 dmg to a player.. Reds basically face-tank this with a single bandage/IVM thanks to the pet-pvp dmg cap (WHY?!). Mages are obviously OP, as today I got insta-killed (100hp) by 3-4 pre casted Explosions. Few Reds basically one-shotting everyone on a PvM event. From 100hp to 0 instantly, no questions asked.
4) Adventurer's rope in dungeons isn't really to climb cliffs or something, it's a thing for a Red to chase you down without investing in Magery. Should be renamed from "Adventurer's Rope" to a "Murderer's Best Friend" This crap doesn't even cost mana!

There is no risk for Red to die. They choose when to fight, get ready for it and then hunt players which are enjoying slaying some monsters. No downside, no punishment, grab a bunch of regs and potions and go. If they die, simply ress-resuply the basics and go again.

Suggestions:
1) Stat/Skill loss on a certain condition for a Red. Perhaps when a Red dies and a Blue manages to cut of his head and deliver this head to an NPC (Sherif), the Red will have his Skills/Stats reduced for X amount of hours.
2) Adventurer's rope should reduce your damage done and increase damage received significantly for a short time (15 sec at least), in order to prevent abuse in PvP and really serve as an ADVENTURER'S rope. It also makes sense, you are vulnerable and weak when climbing a rope, right?
3) Tamers should have more defensive capabilities in PvP (not necessary offensive as it is probably more PvM focused build, but standing next to 2 freaking dragons and feeling afraid and powerless against a human is just stupid).

It's obvious that this thread is posted while I am quite frustrated after being ganged everywhere and all the time.
The game probably offers so much to explore, yet I am at the tipping point whether it's worth the constant frustration of being harassed at every step.

 

[Nymaeron]

Do you have tracking?

 

[Laughing Skull]

What @Nymaeron said. It can provide a HUGE leg up on escaping PKs.

 

[Owyn]

Here are some tips:

• make sure you have wrestling and resist trained up on your character. Running a defenseless build doesn't help. Suvivability > glass cannon DPS/GPH in some instances.
• take tracking and have it searching for reds while you're farmin
• learn dungeon layouts. Farm areas less traveled. Less gold is worthwhile when you're not being killed.
• farm near dungeon moongates, and get an escape macro ready to go.
• run
• farm overland, with a recall macro ready. You can find runes to most points of interest and overland hunting areas near any city moongate.
• join a guild, farm in a group, make some friends
• make sure you have trapped pouches, especially useful for storing goods from thieves when passing through town moongates, and escaping from players casting paralyze against you
• fight back, most reds aren't that great
• if you can't beat em, join em.

 

[Sargoth]

Thank you for the hints on what to improve.
Some of them I already tried, some of them will try for sure in order to improve.

Regarding what I tried

• Tracking

Tracking proved to be ineffective. I don't have tracking myself, but I often join parties and play with friends who have. I even joined a guild to do guild runs. There is always at least one person who has tracking, which in the end changes absolutely nothing, as it is basically just giving me an information that I will die in next 20 seconds.
Tracking range of 50 tiles with (5?) seconds of delay between tracking attempts won't change a thing if we are more than 25 tiles away from a gate, that basically means anywhere else than sitting on a gate. I went on 3 dungeon runs today (5+ players), all of them ended by dying to Reds, all 3.

• make sure you have wrestling and resist trained up on your character. Running a defenseless build doesn't help. Suvivability > glass cannon DPS/GPH in some instances.

I haven't found any Tamer build suggestions running Wrest/Resist. I can give it a try and see where it leads.

• farm near dungeon moongates, and get an escape macro ready to go.

Is this a way to go on this shard? Reds are sweeping through every dungeon every 15 minutes with no risk on their side. 90% of them being mages with the ability to insta-kill you at a distance. No solid punishment if they die. Yet the suggestion is to simply don't explore the dungeon and stay at the moongate. That doesn't sound right.

• join a guild, farm in a group, make some friends

Yes, I did. Died 3 times today (out of 3 runs) with a group of 5+ blues against 2 reds.
Maybe we suck at PvP sure, but the fact that Reds have so many things in their favor is just annyoing:
1) The element of surprise (could be negated by investing points into Tracking).
2) Builds devoted to PvP and going after those who build their characters towards PvM.
3) No risk on their side. They are equipped for a fight with no loot to worry about. No stat/skill loss on death, no penalty for high murder counts.
4) 90% of PKs I met are mages. I wonder what might be the reason. Balance perhaps?
5) Tools designed to provide advantage in PvP like Adventurer's rope (no magery/mana required). Could be used defensively, sure, but offensively as well.
6) Rarely I meet a PK who would wait for me to finish a monster. And by rarely I mean never. So I am blasted by a PK and have an aggro on me as well.
The list could go on,

• make sure you have trapped pouches, especially useful for storing goods from thieves when passing through town moongates, and escaping from players casting paralyze against you

I do.

• if you can't beat em, join em.

"If you don't want to be bullied, be the bully".
Eeeh, no, thanks.


I played several UO shards and sure, Outlands is a successful one and you do a lot of things amazingly well here.
However the Reds are seriously out of control and I am wondering if that is intentional or a byproduct of certain (missing) rules.
Even a heavy PvP oriented shards like UO Forever has much more strict rules towards Reds so they don't harass players 24/7 at every step.

Please see this as a new palyer feedback.
I love the shard after 10 days in, the progressions, events, items and many more things paint a beautiful way to be explored and enjoyed long-term, possibly.
However every single day I am harassed by Reds. In Wilderness, Dungeons, solo or in a group.
I am having a horrible experience in a game that looks like it could provide so much depth and joy. And the cause of the frustration is (in my opinion) absolute Red madness at every step. This is a plague out of control.

I felt like I should share the thoughts.

 

[Laughing Skull]

So I joined Outlands about 3 years ago 100% intent on joining up in the PvP scene. However, from day one I was sucked down the PvM rabbit hole and have been consumed with PvM content since -- working on maximizing my efficiency there. Because of this I still don't know crap about PvP. So when I tell you this I am telling you as a 100% PvM player - Reds do not have the upper hand in the great red vs. blue fight.

It honestly just sounds like a learn to play issue. You haven't tried adding tracking into your template and you don't have wrestle or resist - you're a sitting duck. Unless you had top tier communication (I don't believe you did) an ally having tracking just doesn't allow enough time to react properly. Tracking is incredibly powerful if you react immediately and understand the skill delay. Combine this with knowing dungeon layouts (knowing where the dead ends are and where the escape gates are) make you near impossible to kill. In the red vs. blue cat vs. mouse game you have the upper hand.

To focus on efficiency I've always sacrificed resist. If PKs become a problem I squeeze in 100 tracking and it pretty much takes care of 90% of the problem. Hell, if I took tracking AND resist AND defensive skill I really don't see too many deaths to PKs ever - but I've never gone that far in because tracking alone is usually enough to get the job done.

Oh, and also, if a PK group running 4+ come in, unless I'm also in a group or get lucky with positioning there isn't much that can be done about that. To sum it all up, I just don't think you've obtained sufficient knowledge and skills to survive PK encounters without PK defenses yet. Pick up PK defenses and it should help a ton - it's not overnight magic, but after a bit of trial and error you will get the hang of it. Try this:

Animal Taming
Animal Lore
Magery
Meditation
Eval
Resist
Wrestle

 

[Owyn]

I played several UO shards and sure, Outlands is a successful one and you do a lot of things amazingly well here.
However the Reds are seriously out of control and I am wondering if that is intentional or a byproduct of certain (missing) rules.
Even a heavy PvP oriented shards like UO Forever has much more strict rules towards Reds so they don't harass players 24/7 at every step.

The interesting thing about your player experience is that the factual data we see heavily contradicts it. With 2700 players online, approximately 100 are red, and on average, 8 are actively moving throughout the world. In our opinion, this is a reasonable amount of active murderers.

 

[Kerrigan]

My pvm summoner always had 120 tracking, no wrestling, no resists. I rarely if ever died to a pk on the character (given there were almost no stealth pks when i pvmed). The trick is to have it at least at 100 since most of the pks with tracking try to maximize their damage skills thus keeping their tracking low at 80 (80 is the minimum needed tracking for the hamstring ability), with 100 or even better 120 you will always know about them before they know about you.

The next thing you want to do is to position yourself so that you have a clear path to the nearest moongate, as long as you don't get attacked by a player your cooldown on the rope is low so you can traverse to the gate reasonably fast. If you react fast enough the pk won't ever know you were in the dungeon. For additional advantage consider adding 30 magery to cast teleport from scrolls, master the tele-rope combo and you can instantly gain 20 tiles on the chasing pk at the start of the engagement.

Be aware that pk mages without criminal or pvp timer (for example pks that just entered the dungeon and haven't attacked anyone yet) have no teleport cooldown and can quickly get on top of you as you rope away to para hamstring you. You won't be able to out-teleport them as a dexxer with limited mana. Your best bet is to wait until they attack and only then use the tele-rope combo. They won't be able to catch up because their teleports are on cooldown now. Keep an eye on your strength, you will get weakened, when that happens drink a strength pot.

The remaning issue is the stealth mage pks where tracking doesn't help that much since you'll only get about 5-10 tiles heads up in a dungeon. At this point you should have the para pouch and the rope macros embedded deeply in your muscle memory. The moment you see a stealth pk show on your tracking, rope away from them to avoid getting hamstrung, after you roped away try to break the line of sight.

Note that good stealth pks will stand behind a mob so that you can't see their sprite after they break stealth and start dropping weaken, telekinesis and explo on you before they hamstring melee attack you. if you survive the first dump your chances to survive are high because they usually have low meditation and no resists, try running them through the mobs, they are very squishy vs spells and mob abilities. If you ever encounter a stealth mage pk wielding a halberd or a crossbow they are unlikely to have wrestling, as a dexxer you have 100% chance to disrupt all their spells, if you can disarm them they're defenseless.

As a dexxer don't wear full plate try to mix in chain and ringmail or even bone armor. Full plate is invitation for mind blast spam, the spell with low cast time, high cast range and very high damage vs characters in plate armor. In the recent patch all types of armor except plate had their meditation penalty reduced (the armor stat that controls how fast you regenerate mana and how much mind blast damage you take). Ring/chain/bone is better in protecting you from mind blasts than ever before.

PKs push you to become better in all aspects of the game(whether you like it or not, pvp has always been part of the felucca uo) They make dungeons truly dangerous places and keep you on your toes. They also keep glass cannon gph maxing builds in check thus posibly playing a small part in keeping the shard's inflation lower. (Although a lot of high end farmers still choose glass cannon builds as they make more gold despite dying to pks)

 

[Sargoth]

Thank you Laughing Skull, Owen and Kerrigan for your time and feedback. I am trying to incorporate some of the advices provided by you
I don't want to give up just yet, but my opinion hasn't really changed since the original post, as the same scenarios keep happening and not only to me.

Just look at this screenshot attached, it happened just now.
Roughly 20+ people killed by a single PK at the trainer in Prevalia.

You can look at it two ways.
1) A world of Ultima is a dangerous place. This is a part of the game.
2) Sure, PKs are part of the game, but this is a simple griefing. 20+ players won't be happy about this (more so really pissed) and 1 person (PK) is laughing at home. Not even for a loot or gain, just for the fun of ruining someone's else day. This shouldn't be just accepted.

I absolutely agree with all of you that I need to improve to be able to defend myself, no doubt about that. It will be a long road ahead, but I believe it is possible.
At the same time, try to open your eyes and have a bit of empathy towards those who are targets of such behavior. It isn't fun.

Please consider having some sort of repercussions in place for PKs. Just so they have to put some thought before mindlessly killing someone.
A kill of a person should always come with a risk. This isn't the case now.

Some suggestions:
1) PK counts wouldn't drop over time, but would have to be paid off by gold. Higher the PK count, the more serious repercussions *2) *3) *4).
- This could partially solve problem on a screenshot above as well as hunting new/defenseless players. PKs would choose more carefully who to kill, as the risk would increase. The most elite murderers could see the kill count as some sort of prestige as well.

Currently it serves almost no purpose to flag a kill when PK gets you. It's just a number for them. No risk raising it.

2) Temporary skill/stat loss when killed.
Could be really low (10-15 mins) at low murder counts. much higher for dangerous serial killers who happen to die by the hand of a blue.

3) A tracker/broadcast activating at some murder count pointing an approximate location of a serial killer.
This would put additional pressure at mass murderers, as they could become a "public target". Possibly even for a reward to whom gets them (also penalizing the murdered, to avoid self-farming). A basic principle of "Wanted" poster.
This would also bring a bit more awareness to those who want to avoid this serial killer, as they would know when he entered the dungeon or something.

There are of course more possibilities, but it depends if there is a will for a change.
Of course, my feedback is just of a one person. Given what I saw so far (for example the screenshot above), talking to other players, reading Discord "new player" tab etc. This is a bit overwhelming for more people and perhaps something worth thinking about.

Have a wonderful day whoever managed to read it till here and thank you for all the replies

 

[AreYouKidden]

@Sargoth I can't really add to the advice given before, as it pretty much sums up everything that will get you surviving against reds. It's incredibly hard to kill someone who doesn't want to be killed here - and there are no instant kills as much as you want to call mages an instant kill. The reality is a dexxer will chew you up without wrestling, and a mage, while they can hide an explo damage in, with their first initial damage, have to stop to cast, which is where you roping, gets you out of cast range, then just right click to the gate.

All that said, you keep claiming there are no penalties on reds. It's really just not true. I personally think the penalties are currently low - especially for level 1 & 2 of dungeons, where newer players often are, but at current time, anytime a murderer kills someone, they accrue a resurrection fine, that they have to pay in order to resurrect when they die. Unfortunately those counts are reset after every death, so they never stack a growing fine, just a set fine for each kill they manage. Murder Counts

In addition to this, they are also locked out of the area they murder in, when they die, up to 90 minutes if killing new players on level 1.

When you kill a murderer you get 25% of their rez penalty as a bounty - due to this, I can tell you that PK's are either very unsuccessful at killing, or die constantly, because bounties are soo low currently, that they clearly aren't accruing a huge penalty.

I can appreciate the frustration of being a newer player - and that reds are constantly running by you first, to get to level 3 of dungeons - and that's really the worst of it, because anyone who hunts level 3 will often claim they see barely any reds - our new players get the worst of it. That said being in a guild of anti-PK's who call out reds, and hunt them - I've noticed a huge increase of red PK's especially over the weekends - so I empathize with your complaints. For example last night, there were often 1-3 active red call outs at any time, from 8 pm est to 11 pm est it seemed. That said, they are being punished for it, we are collecting very low bounties all the time, reds are dying constantly, you can tell because they are often less than 1,000 gold as a bounty when you kill them. It's not like reds are running around, never dying, and just making bank while ruining players nights.

A little sweet justice for you, not sure it'll help, but we did 4 bosses last night, and at every boss, as we ran into the dungeon, reds had just shown up, and a group of 10 of us, jumped, and trashed every one of them. It was quite amusing to the point I almost felt bad for the reds, but they get what they deserve, for not skipping new players on level 1 & 2 of dungeons. But it does also goes to show how thick the reds were last night.

 

[JUDO CHOP(V-V)]

Thank you Laughing Skull, Owen and Kerrigan for your time and feedback. I am trying to incorporate some of the advices provided by you
I don't want to give up just yet, but my opinion hasn't really changed since the original post, as the same scenarios keep happening and not only to me.

Just look at this screenshot attached, it happened just now.
Roughly 20+ people killed by a single PK at the trainer in Prevalia.
View attachment 8066

You can look at it two ways.
1) A world of Ultima is a dangerous place. This is a part of the game.
2) Sure, PKs are part of the game, but this is a simple griefing. 20+ players won't be happy about this (more so really pissed) and 1 person (PK) is laughing at home. Not even for a loot or gain, just for the fun of ruining someone's else day. This shouldn't be just accepted.

I absolutely agree with all of you that I need to improve to be able to defend myself, no doubt about that. It will be a long road ahead, but I believe it is possible.
At the same time, try to open your eyes and have a bit of empathy towards those who are targets of such behavior. It isn't fun.

Please consider having some sort of repercussions in place for PKs. Just so they have to put some thought before mindlessly killing someone.
A kill of a person should always come with a risk. This isn't the case now.

Some suggestions:
1) PK counts wouldn't drop over time, but would have to be paid off by gold. Higher the PK count, the more serious repercussions *2) *3) *4).
- This could partially solve problem on a screenshot above as well as hunting new/defenseless players. PKs would choose more carefully who to kill, as the risk would increase. The most elite murderers could see the kill count as some sort of prestige as well.

Currently it serves almost no purpose to flag a kill when PK gets you. It's just a number for them. No risk raising it.

2) Temporary skill/stat loss when killed.
Could be really low (10-15 mins) at low murder counts. much higher for dangerous serial killers who happen to die by the hand of a blue.

3) A tracker/broadcast activating at some murder count pointing an approximate location of a serial killer.
This would put additional pressure at mass murderers, as they could become a "public target". Possibly even for a reward to whom gets them (also penalizing the murdered, to avoid self-farming). A basic principle of "Wanted" poster.
This would also bring a bit more awareness to those who want to avoid this serial killer, as they would know when he entered the dungeon or something.

There are of course more possibilities, but it depends if there is a will for a change.
Of course, my feedback is just of a one person. Given what I saw so far (for example the screenshot above), talking to other players, reading Discord "new player" tab etc. This is a bit overwhelming for more people and perhaps something worth thinking about.

Have a wonderful day whoever managed to read it till here and thank you for all the replies

Yeah, my alt is in that picture, lol. I just ressed him and put him back training and 5 minutes later everyone dead again. Then dead again 2 minutes later. Apparently this guy Riak is really bored.

PKs were fun when I first got here. There are a few that are really good. Some, I noticed, would even realize you're new to it and would cut some slack and give you a chance to recover from mistakes. Getting jumped by 1 or 2 people and fighting to survive or run them off is loads of fun. Lately, all I am encountering is groups of mages precast dumping every encounter. I guess that is how they have fun. I like having the risk a lot, it takes the boring out of grinding things, but no one likes getting wiped by groups of people every few minutes.

 

[Elric]

In addition to this, they are also locked out of the area they murder in, when they die, up to 90 minutes if killing new players on level 1.

I think this is part of the issue. They have to actually die to get the penalty. If they don't die, then no penalty or they just have a friend kill them just before they are going to log out for the evening to burn off that time.

 

[Sargoth]

There is a corruption Shrine PvM event twice a day.
I joined both events today as I want to enjoy different parts of the game, hoping to enjoy it.
Shrine of Humility was invaded by 3 PKs and they cherry-picked people one by one, eventually killing everyone at wave 10. Take a guess, yes, mages running with pre-casts one-shotting (or killing in 1-2 second bursts) everyone.

Shrine of Valor as a second PvM shrine event today was invaded from the get go, wave 1. Same scenario.

Is this what you call a PvM event? Killed by a PK at each of them.
Obviously, it makes sense to pick these "PvM" events for fights as a PK, as you can expect people going there with PvM builds, fighting monsters, having aggro on them.
It is a heaven for those coming equipped for PvP, having absolutely no interest in the event itself, just some easy kills.

On the second event I couldn't even healer-ress up and leave, as PKs were CAMPING the healer. I tried to ress 9 times total, 9 times I was killed immediately.
PKs running around, obviously all of them mages, even casting Poison Field on a healer.

This is nothing else than a disgusting griefing!

Having this set up like this here, there is no point for me to go to PvM events.
If nothing will change, I will slowly have to limit myself to play a small part of the game, as other parts are simply not viable to play.

Please consider the following:

1) Create at least some PvM events with no harmful actions against other players allowed. As far as I know, there are none like that. There are PvP oriented events (totally fine, I'll pass, I enjoy PvM), but then there are PvM events which are full of PvP anyway. Please let me know if there is "real" PvM event on Outlands, as I am still new and trying to experience the game.

2) Consider giving a player 30-60 seconds of "protection" after being ressed from a healer. Obviously, player can't attack or run too far from the place of ressurection to avoid misuse. But there should be an option to protect a player against griefers like this.

3) This experience proves again that some PKs won't hesitate to kill you with magic arrow 9 times in a row. Most of them today hunted weaker players first, an easy prey. There obviously isn't a strong enough reason to avoid gaining lots of murder counts.

Is this what Outlands really is? A toxic PK community with no rules set by the shard, promoting abuse and easy PK of new players?

 

[Sargoth]

I'd like to add that despite the negative experience described above, the shard is extremely well made. The whole PvM part of the game, the monsters, aspects, progressions, crafting, that's just an amazing work. Huge respect to you guys for creating something like this in an Ultima world. It's amazing So far, that's the reason for me to log back in and drag more friends here, even after an experience like described below And possibly the reason for sharing my feedback, as I am beginning to care about the shard after two weeks here.
PvP is enjoyable part of the game too, it just feels a bit off the limits here.

Stay happy, stay positive, enjoy the day everyone!

 

[JUDO CHOP(V-V)]

What I did was get a runebook and I found some decent wilderness spots where PKs are rare to go to if the tards are out. Hard to find spots like that, but there are a few... usually on areas of map edges or close. I pretty much gave up on dungeons except for very late night/early morning or if I do go during normal hours, I leave every few minutes or you're just asking for it. It is really frustrating, but you'll eventually get a feel for places and times that work out. I also changed my template for a little more survivability and started fighting back. 8/10 of them will run away once they figure out they're not going to just get an easy kill or because they're just bad lol. Hang in there, it will get easier.

 

[AreYouKidden]

Definitely shrines can be a frustrating experience, but honestly, 3 reds should get stomped by the blues there, the problem is, most blues don't bother turn and fight back to protect their PvM event, and their spawn, they flee, try to protect themselves, or their aspect timers, and literally let 3 reds, dictate how that entire event turns out. This is a common theme in dungeons, and all throughout the game - there are many people who have either decided PvP isnt' worth their time/cooldowns, or they just aren't into the PvP side of things. The sheep those 3 red wolves are hunting ironically.

 

[Owyn]

There is a corruption Shrine PvM event twice a day.
I joined both events today as I want to enjoy different parts of the game, hoping to enjoy it.
Shrine of Humility was invaded by 3 PKs and they cherry-picked people one by one, eventually killing everyone at wave 10. Take a guess, yes, mages running with pre-casts one-shotting (or killing in 1-2 second bursts) everyone.

Shrine of Valor as a second PvM shrine event today was invaded from the get go, wave 1. Same scenario.

Is this what you call a PvM event? Killed by a PK at each of them.
Obviously, it makes sense to pick these "PvM" events for fights as a PK, as you can expect people going there with PvM builds, fighting monsters, having aggro on them.
It is a heaven for those coming equipped for PvP, having absolutely no interest in the event itself, just some easy kills.

On the second event I couldn't even healer-ress up and leave, as PKs were CAMPING the healer. I tried to ress 9 times total, 9 times I was killed immediately.
PKs running around, obviously all of them mages, even casting Poison Field on a healer.

This is nothing else than a disgusting griefing!

View attachment 8076

View attachment 8077

Having this set up like this here, there is no point for me to go to PvM events.
If nothing will change, I will slowly have to limit myself to play a small part of the game, as other parts are simply not viable to play.

Please consider the following:

1) Create at least some PvM events with no harmful actions against other players allowed. As far as I know, there are none like that. There are PvP oriented events (totally fine, I'll pass, I enjoy PvM), but then there are PvM events which are full of PvP anyway. Please let me know if there is "real" PvM event on Outlands, as I am still new and trying to experience the game.

2) Consider giving a player 30-60 seconds of "protection" after being ressed from a healer. Obviously, player can't attack or run too far from the place of ressurection to avoid misuse. But there should be an option to protect a player against griefers like this.

3) This experience proves again that some PKs won't hesitate to kill you with magic arrow 9 times in a row. Most of them today hunted weaker players first, an easy prey. There obviously isn't a strong enough reason to avoid gaining lots of murder counts.

Is this what Outlands really is? A toxic PK community with no rules set by the shard, promoting abuse and easy PK of new players?

My honest recommendation for you would be to find a Trammel based shard, or one with only consensual PvP. You are wasting your time playing on Outlands, it isn't giving you any joy. You should play somewhere that makes you happy. This is a game, after all.

 

[yipes!]

Honestly asking here - not super familiar with most PK builds. Do PKs and dungeon PVPers often weaken their PVP builds with PVM skills to survive mobs in the same way that the dexxer tamer above would weaken their PVM build to try to defend from reds?

 

[Sir Papeth]

I'd like to add that despite the negative experience described above, the shard is extremely well made. The whole PvM part of the game, the monsters, aspects, progressions, crafting, that's just an amazing work. Huge respect to you guys for creating something like this in an Ultima world. It's amazing So far, that's the reason for me to log back in and drag more friends here, even after an experience like described below And possibly the reason for sharing my feedback, as I am beginning to care about the shard after two weeks here.
PvP is enjoyable part of the game too, it just feels a bit off the limits here.

Stay happy, stay positive, enjoy the day everyone!

Keep your head up new one. It can be hard to get started. Outlands is very popular so naturally, there's going to be a lot of action. Both in PvM/PvP/Pk.

Somethings I took away from your replies and dilemma:

"Tracking proved to be ineffective. I don't have tracking myself, but I often join parties and play with friends who have. "

It sounds like whoever has tracking in your party isn't utilizing it very well. You know, kind of like how if you give a man a fishing pole that doesn't mean he is going to know how to fish. If the PKS are that much of an issue, the tracker in your party should solely be focused on scouting for Pks. He can hang back in intervals to help give you guys a head start, scout ahead to make sure it's clear. With 100 tracking and having it always on tracking reds set for always get closest, he should be able to at least give you guys at 40 tile head start in dungeons. And from there it's all about knowing the quickest route to the moongate or better yet, holding your ground.

Yes, I did. Died 3 times today (out of 3 runs) with a group of 5+ blues against 2 reds.

If it's just 2 PKS and there is a group of you, you should be able to at least fend them off. You can usually tell how many PKS are coming by doing a manual track. It'll show everyone. PKS are notoriously weak against monsters. You can find a defensive spot that will help you guys utilize the monsters and hopefully get the aggression on them.

You said you have a group of 5. If you 5 clear a local area of monsters and there are monsters in front and behind you and then 2 PKS come charging. The worst thing you can do is run from that local area. Because, you are now giving the secure spot to the PKS and running into monsters. The best thing is to hold your ground. The charging PKS will most likely be pulling spawn, but that spawn will be focused on them so they can either A: Try to kill you while you fight back + monsters attacking them. Or B: They retreat away back into the monsters.

Maybe we suck at PvP sure,

You don't necessarily need to be good at PvP to survive, you just have to be good at surviving to survive. To be honest. If 5 of you guys are losing to 2 PKs, that's not really a mechanic issue. Are you guys just running away, slowest person dies? If you have no plan set before hand, then you can't really expect to win a fight. And you can't blame mechanics for poor skill and planning. Try to form a plan before hand. Have set roles. Players 1,2,3 will fight, players 4,5 will heal. Maybe have a specific loot carrier so when fighting breaks out he is the person to protect and he can hang back and be ready to run if the plan doesn't work. That way at least loot is secured. In all things, planning is essential. Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

I haven't found any Tamer build suggestions running Wrest/Resist.

PvM specific builds don't state wrest/resist because those don't specifically help with PvM. But they do help with surviving. If your group is all glass cannon builds (no defensive skills) then, well, you can't expect to live much against mages sync dropping. If your group has templates and playstyles with no teamwork ability and everyone just runs for the hills, then you can't expect the team to do good. You need to think of yourself as an organized unit with set roles and a plan to follow. Wrest/Resist is recommended for newer players who don't know the dungeon layouts and/or how to survive well. It's worth taking because it'll give you wiggle room. If you aren't good at escaping and get caught by a pk or two, with 0 resist and 0 wrestling you can't expect to survive long.

Also, maybe consider getting a mentor or joining a veteran guild where you can learn the ways of surviving and fighting back. There are several guilds that offer good protection for their players.

You have a misconception about red players being out of control. Also, as others are stated, there are penalties and restrictions against them. So no, they are not just running around restriction free. You are new here, thus this is why you are struggling to adjust and figure it out. It's not a mechanic issue by any means and there is no need for further restrictions against reds. You are just two weeks in and tbh seems like you need to improve your tactics a bit. Outlands is very PvM oriented and favors PvM players.

Laughingskull stated it well: To sum it all up, I just don't think you've obtained sufficient knowledge and skills to survive PK encounters without PK defenses yet.

 

[Sir Papeth]

Honestly asking here - not super familiar with most PK builds. Do PKs and dungeon PVPers often weaken their PVP builds with PVM skills to survive mobs in the same way that the dexxer tamer above would weaken their PVM build to try to defend from reds?

As of recently, yes. Due to the last monster patch more reds have changed their builds around. That's why there are more stealth reds and reds adding spirit speak to their builds to boost summons. Others have adopted parry/heal builds.

Those that don't add either learn how to avoid mobs/dangerous locations or die.