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PvP and Dungeon Testing Patch

Nose Goblin

Neophyte
@Luthius why revisit the blessed item inside CCC idea? I don't think there is a single person on this server who is hurting for regs/potions/armor/weapons etc. Part of CCC is looting your kills. This idea might be great in town struggles, but in CCC it is just plain silly. Please for the love of God, do not implement this.
 

Skrypt

Novice
Agree with this except I don't think a dexer should have to drop their weapon to Teleport they lose their defense skill. A mage with wrestling maintains that while cast teleport.
Only if its coded to not allow a free weapon swing / archer shot during that 1sec rope cast delay.

EDIT:
HM ACTUALLY... not sure it should let you keep weapon equipped.

As things are now on live, any build casting Teleport must drop their weapon and re-equip it.
Allowing every build to now avoid un-equip/re-equip (by using rope instead) would be changing extra things.

How bout this...
Pvp rope drops your weapon (same as Teleport).
But your weapon skill gives you defensive wrestling solely in the act of casting pvp rope (for a dexxer with 100 wep skill / 0 wrestle)
 
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a Pathfinder

Neophyte
I still find it hard to imagine teleport rope being balanced in any sort of way. The idea should just be scrapped. We have had a server going for 2.5 years now without it and it has been mostly fine. Dexers are not in any dire straights for PVP they are one of the strongest class in the game. The solution is to do what I do and anyone else can do, take 50-60 magery on your template. It gives you access to teleport, telekensis, wall of stone, etc. You just need 45 int and 80 dex ( plus 20 for agility pot 100 total) and you have 0 downsides. I don't get why this is being discussed @Luthius ? Is there a real problem with dexers needing teleport this badly in pvp, but they can't find 60 skillpoints of room? I thought the way you built the server with all of these linear skills made the ability to flex 50-60 magery into your template so possible and easy, now we are just going to have a game of every single person on the server constantly teleporting with 0 downside? The entire game will be different in a bad way.
 
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AreYouKidden

Legendary
I still find it hard to imagine teleport rope being balanced in any sort of way. The idea should just be scrapped. We have had a server going for 2.5 years now without it and it has been mostly fine. Dexers are not in any dire straights for PVP they are one of the strongest class in the game. The solution is to do what I do and anyone else can do, take 50-60 magery on your template. It gives you access to teleport, telekensis, wall of stone, etc. You just need 45 int and 80 dex ( plus 20 for agility pot 100 total) and you have 0 downsides. I don't get why this is being discussed @Luthius ? Is there a real problem with dexers needing teleport this badly in pvp, but they can't find 60 skillpoints of room? I thought the way you built the server with all of these linear skills made the ability to flex 50-60 magery into your template so possible and easy, now we are just going to have a game of every single person on the server constantly teleporting with 0 downside? The entire game will be different in a bad way.
I think it was more the PvM group that wanted the change, every single PvM glass cannon dexxer / dex tamer / bard dexxer who is at a huge disadvantage already, the moment a PK flags on you, you can no longer take a teleport leap even though you didn't flag back, to try to create some space (much akin to your aspect turning off)- especially if it's a group, and only 1 mage flagged on you, if you try to flag back on the others in the group, then your locked in and can't leave for 30s, you have zero recourse.. That 1 teleport can save you..

But the change does have a big impact on PvP... so often mages get away from dexxers because they can slowly teleport to gain more and more distance..
 

a Pathfinder

Neophyte
I think it was more the PvM group that wanted the change, every single PvM glass cannon dexxer / dex tamer / bard dexxer who is at a huge disadvantage already, the moment a PK flags on you, you can no longer take a teleport leap even though you didn't flag back, to try to create some space (much akin to your aspect turning off)- especially if it's a group, and only 1 mage flagged on you, if you try to flag back on the others in the group, then your locked in and can't leave for 30s, you have zero recourse.. That 1 teleport can save you..

But the change does have a big impact on PvP... so often mages get away from dexxers because they can slowly teleport to gain more and more distance..
The thing is, doesn't every single glass cannon build run tracking so they don't get PKed? Tracking gives you a 50 tile space creating advantage. Also should we be making major PVP changes based on people running glass cannon builds? I just don't think we should be.
 

AreYouKidden

Legendary
The thing is, doesn't every single glass cannon build run tracking so they don't get PKed? Tracking gives you a 50 tile space creating advantage. Also should we be making major PVP changes based on people running glass cannon builds? I just don't think we should be.
I don't disagree with you - and honestly a lot of those high end glass cannon farming builds, no longer take tracking, they take camping (it all really depends on the player)... When there is a skill choice to have this, there really isn't a good reason to change it - you don't even need 50 magery for it, can do 30 magery with teleport scrolls..
 

TotallyBaked

Neophyte
Hi

I've read a lot of the previous posts about pvp teleport rope and i don't think we should compromise on pvp tele rope.

Let's take a look at telekinesis expo pot patch, dexers complained they had to take magery to use this ability, a lot.

The developers didn't want this to be a magery less ability.

Telekinesis is now a utility spell that requires magery or magery + scroll.
A utility spell is a spell that can be used offensively and defensively.
Teleport is a utility spell as you can engage or disengage with this spell.

I ask this why is it reasonable to allow dexers to use an item to teleport in pvp for 0 skill investment when it was deemed unreasonable for telekinesis, it was stated "it's not that hard to have some magery and use a scroll", i believe this argument is valid in the pvp tele rope argument as to not allow tele rope in pvp.

Poison, i play a nox mage enough to know its flaws and strengths, very mana dependent play style.

A range change won't help solve the issue which is, people spam nox like there is no tomorrow and play as a mage secondly, a range change causes this to happen:

I play an archer mage and sit outside of the 4 tile range only in DP range this nox mage will NEVER get a lethal off if i maintain xbow range worse bow range, i don't know if this is intended but it will occur.

Lastly I cannot see this range change affecting the spam play style you see players do with nox mages, all it will do is allow lethal to be applied almost never in pvp however you can still run out of cures very easy without lethal being applied, if they spam Poison however; this change will almost be like a revert to before lethal was given to magery + poison skills.

A viable solution to nox spam could be, i hate to say it but a restriction on cast frequency or we might need to look at poison tolerance for magery poison independently from nox dexers, as it could be used to reduce to application of lethal over a longer fights or constant nox spam

Thanks.
Edit: update 2min cool down change:

Cast time equal to teleport, how come it cant be disrupted/interrupted like teleport spell?

Now for a harsh reality, how come dexers don't have bandage slips in pvp, this teleport restriction will allow a granted uninterruptible teleport off screen bandage heal every 2min in non mounted combat not to mention they already have UNINTERRUPTED HEALING!

2min in an engagement for teleport is extremely long especially considering its utility in pvp from avoiding zergs (whom exploit mechanics and leave dungeons to cut people off and can still be grey flagged too (30sec < 120sec) great system), to avoiding a sync dump, jumping over field spells, engaging hamstring or re-positing offensively or defensively, let alone avoiding some special ability mobs do on this server when in dungeons pvping or pking.

This change to teleport rope might seem like a fair compromise to basically say mages only use teleport, however we are still giving dexer templates and other templates access to abilities they wouldn't normally have though an item which results in crude unbalancing no matter how you spin it with a timer or 1 time use, it still results in the prescribed scenario above; "granted uninterruptible teleport off screen bandage heal every <timer value> or <usage value> in non mounted combat".

@Luthius (since im editing my existing post).
 
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a Pathfinder

Neophyte
I ask this why is it reasonable to allow dexers to use an item to teleport in pvp for 0 skill investment when it was deemed unreasonable for telekinesis, it was stated "it's not that hard to have some magery and use a scroll", i believe this argument is valid in the pvp tele rope argument as to not allow tele rope in pvp.
Honestly, thank you.
 

Weez

Novice
Listen I have a ton of feedback on all of the changes but the only reason I spent 10 mins trying to remember my password is to talk about the usage of ADVENTURERS ROPE IN COMBAT

Dexxers are fundamentally already pretty stupid to fight on almost any character in or outside of dungeons. They can literally just bandage and run/offscreen while spamming pots etc. SOMETIMES you can wall and kill or use a tele to outplay but thats usually you're only respite if you're solo PVPing/PKing and they are running. Same thing if you're being chased by a zerg of brainless dexxers, you MIGHT actually get away with a strategic tele here and there if you dont get hamstrung and then disrupted to death instantly.

Dexxers are already the template with the lowest skill to power ratio (esp if you account for poison dexxers) and this actually increases the power without increasing the requirement of skill. This change and changes like it contribute to the degradation of skilled openworld pvp on this server (which if im being brutally honest I'm not sure it can get much lower) -- this is part of the reason why everyone zergs here. And zerg begets zerg begets zerg.

Anyways quite frankly this is only a minor change in the grand scheme of things that I think make this server less and less enjoyable for me and others to play (I'm sure you think I'm hating but im genuinely just trying to be honest), but this sort of feels like a directionally pointed change and a bit of a message as to where you're trying to take the server mechanics. Not sure if it will be implemented but thats my 2 cents take it or leave it or tell me to get fukt IDK. I'm sad that this has even made it to test.

TLDR;
DEXXERS, GROW UP AND GET 50 FKING MAGERY JESUS HOW HARD IS IT YOU ALREADY PLAY ON BRAINDEAD EZ MODE
 

spooj

Neophyte
Thanks for the hard work! Question - is there a reason dueling elo is not in the "pipeline"? It would be far superior to the current "win rate" that is only available in duels / records. I (and I think many others) believe that even implementing the same Rift elo into dueling would be very beneficial! I also think it would pull more people into the duel pits
 

relougudbai

Neophyte
dexxers with rope in pvp its a big big mistake

just get 50 magery on a dexxer, i wanna weapon skill and healing on my mage too for free

this its just stupid
 
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spooj

Neophyte
One more thing. One of the big problems with housing at CCC is that you are able to go in and res your entire team right next to a point. This provides a huge advantage over the team that needs to run 10 screens away and res their team/restock somewhere else. The 60s point lockout does not prevent against this - as the team that restocks right next to a point has a huge "control" advantage.

To counteract this somewhat - I propose a 3 minute stat/skill loss upon death. This really would be a silver bullet in leveling the playing field in terms of restocking time. Players essentially have 180 seconds before they're allowed back in the fight - no matter if they res one screen away or 5 screens away. It makes death more meaningful and counteracts resing in a house one screen away, grabbing a stock bag, and being back in the fight in 15 seconds.

What do you guys think?
 

Dovestrangler

Neophyte
Controversial hot takes incoming:

1. The changes to ropes is fine, because honestly PKing PvM templates is not that interesting. The trend over time has been to make it very easy to escape PKs in dungeons and create space for competitive PvP in events. I think that's fine as long as the events are designed in a way where you don't need to rally an army to have fun.

2. A big problem with PvP on Outlands is that it either has a lot of downtime (PKing) or takes an awful lot of setup time because you have to rally a lot of people to be competitive (flashpoints, CCC). Compared to a lot of other online games with quick balanced matchmaking this means that you can't just jump on and play without facing a rather big disadvantage. Town struggles are the only event with some sort of team balance, whereas dungeon flashpoints and CCC very quickly becomes a numbers game. The guild that shows up with the most people has a huge advantage. Reducing the cost of participation by making blessed items in CCC and dungeon flashpoints is good, but I think dungeon flashpoints should switch to a team-based format like town struggles. CCC can remain a true guild vs guild event. I want to be able to do more pvp events without also scheduling with 6 other guild members first.

3. Spooj is absolutely correct that housing in CCC still allows for a major advantage, a lot of CCC boils down to who can restock the fastest after a skirmish where you lose enough that the team has to reset. The guilds that have centrally placed houses have a huge advantage.

4. The arena tournaments are kinda boring because it's both a lot of RNG and a match is decided by a single kill, and it's once a week. A daily arena dueling event where everyone duels for some sort of battle points/currency (not cloth) might make it more populated. As it stands you kinda have to schedule duels on discord.
 

Eaos

Novice
If you play town struggles 6am -5gmt you know that dexxers are VERY strong, I think rope should share a cooldown with teleport, but i DO NOT think rope should be usable in combat, keep current combat flagging rope mechanic, but make them share a cooldown is what i believe to be a good path.
 

mumbojumbo

Neophyte
first, thx for the hard work. what a wonderful shard to play on!
my 2 cents concerning the the new rope mechanic:

to the people saying "just take magery on your pure dexxer already!!1!"
i think you are missing the point here. of course this new mechanic is inherently aiming towards builds that dont have magery by choice. there are a lot of people who enjoy breaking out of the old uo meta of always having to take magery as a utility to every single build they roll. its a different feel to play a cahracter not having to deal with regs, mana regen and other mage stuff. i myself play pure dexxers builds as well as pure mages and hybrids. the beauty of evolving uo (like outlands does) lies in breaking with all the old dogmas while of course trying to maintain balance and giving a fresh twist on gameplay. thats what makes outlands such a wonderful experience after all.

that being said, i think the new rope pvp mechanics are a very great and a welcome change. just saying it shouldnt be implemented becasue its something new and changes how things have been in the past is like saying pls dont change things that affect how im used to play. which is a pretty lazy argument.

with my dexxer builds i have often found myself in a situation where the rule of engagement was made at the will of mage/hybrid zergs teleporting/walling around while instantly flagging me for pvp in order to prevent any roping attempt. i suspect these are also the exact same people crying about it now. i feel that these changes give pure dexxers a bit more of mobility while still maintaining teleport spell superiority due to longer rope cooldown and mages also being able to use rope at any time. Which is a good thing!

Keep up the good work an the bravery for changing things for the better, even if it means stepping on some conservative toes sometimes.
Cheers!
 

DUBLINITE

Apprentice
Can we get flagging grey via stealing limited to people with actual stealing skill as part of this pvp patch too? This is stupid that people looking to pk but not take counts can grief dungeons endlessly.
 

Memphist

Neophyte
Contest Bosses

I think 50% that a boss will be a contested and announced is too much. With this changes you hit the smaller guilds. Every Contested Boss only do the same big guilds.
You can see it at Omni bosses bigger guilds mostly get not attacked even it is a grey zone.
Until now, even smaller guilds could scout a boss and defeat it, which is great.
I find the current situation is balanced, i dont think its necessary to change the zone in a gey zone. Who wants to kill someone will be grey or must come with a pk.
So i think it would be better to lower the chance that a naturally boss gets contested (no announcment) and no grey zone.
 

Lemora

Journeyman
Can we get flagging grey via stealing limited to people with actual stealing skill as part of this pvp patch too? This is stupid that people looking to pk but not take counts can grief dungeons endlessly.
That this works on you, says more about you than the current rules system lol
 

mumbojumbo

Neophyte
Addendum:
Changing the rope cool down to 2 minutes is making one step forward and two steps back. It is now effectively useless again against tele/wall spammers/zergs. No need to implement that "solution".