Refined PvP System for General Fairness

[Maethross]

I've posted this and various other things in the ideas section but i have seen alot of talk centered around this so i figured why not address this here too..

The core philosophy of these changes is:

Anti Zerg Mechanics
Give the target more active defenses against common PK openers.
Increase the cost of death for the attacker (PK).

​

1. Anti-Zerg Mechanics (Overworld & Dungeons)​ The biggest source of unfairness is the power of numbers. Mechanic Change Fairness Improvement x x x Aggression Decay (Dungeon) When a player deals another player damage, they receive a "Aggression Tag" for 90 seconds. Mobs focus players with an Aggression Tag. Saves PvMers: PvMers/Skillers can escape without being immediately mob-killed by the PK's pull (a common grief). The PK must now deal with the mobs themselves, increasing their risk. x x x

1. Counterplay & Defensive Utility​

Give PvM templates real, active options against the most common PK openers (Paralyze and burst spells).

Mechanic	Change	Fairness Improvement
Paralyze Resistance	Magic Resistance Check: If a player has 80 Magic Resistance, they gain a passive chance to completely resist the Paralyze spell.	Breaks the Lock: Paralyze is the primary griefing tool. Giving high Magic Resist builds a real defense against it & encourages diversity and rewards investing in counter-PvP stats.
Reactive Armor (Dexxer Buff)	The Reactive Armor spell's Physical Resistance bonus should be doubled when the target has 100 Wrestling or 100 Arms Lore.	Dexxer Viability: This makes the Reactive Armor defense truly meaningful for melee builds, giving Dexxers a sustainable way to survive a mage's burst opening, making fights more viable.
Adventurer's Rope	Reduce the PvP Cooldown on the Adventurer's Rope to a lower amount for non red/gray players.	Escape Balance: Lowering its cooldown slightly makes repeated PK attempts on the same target harder and gives the hunted a better chance for a second escape attempt.

2. Risk-vs-Reward for the Attacker (The Red Name Cost)​

Fairness means the PK must risk something proportional to the time they waste for the PvM player.

Mechanic	Change	Fairness Improvement
Recovery	When a red player is killed by a Blue/Gray player, the recent victims receives 50% of the value of their lost Gold back upon resurrection (up to a cap).	Justice Served: This rewards the victim with a token amount of compensation (gold recovery) and makes the loss feel slightly less absolute. It also rewards players for fighting back.
PK Loot Penalty	If a Criminal/Murderer (Red/Gray name) is killed, they bleed extra money from their bank, and the total gold looted from their corpse is boosted by a percentage based on a multiplier of some sort.	Higher Risk for the Hunter: This makes the act of being PK'd as a Red name a much more significant financial loss, encouraging PKs to be more selective, strategic, and fight fair, rather than simply going for low-risk kills.
The "Ragequit" Timer (Anti-Griefing)	If a player is killed in the wilderness, they receive a 60-second timer during which the killer cannot deal damage to them again after resurrection.	Prevents "Graverobbing": Stops the most blatant form of griefing (killing a newly resurrected, defenseless target immediately) and ensures the victim has time to assess and escape.

 

[Michael]

There's a lot going on here, but I think the fundamental problem with your proposals is your perspective that all of these activities are 'grieffing'. I do not consider PKers griefers, and I don't consider being murdered by a player being griefed.

IMO, as a blue player, reds have life hard enough already.

 

[Sones]

The same people crying about everything is what made Trammel came up in the first place and killed ultima online.
Why can't people just accept how a game is instead of trying to change it at all costs?

 

[AthenaVixen]

The same people crying about everything is what made Trammel came up in the first place and killed ultima online.
Why can't people just accept how a game is instead of trying to change it at all costs?

Actually OSI doubled in size after releasing Trammel. It died because this is 30 year old dinosaur that no one plays anymore.

 

[AthenaVixen]

There's a lot going on here, but I think the fundamental problem with your proposals is your perspective that all of these activities are 'grieffing'. I do not consider PKers griefers, and I don't consider being murdered by a player being griefed.

IMO, as a blue player, reds have life hard enough already.

Killing and thieving by definition is griefing.

 

[AthenaVixen]

I love these ideas!

If you want to boost PVP, I think you should look into what is preventing the average blue (me) into engaging.

OSI, introduced insurance... this skyrocketed PVP but killed the thieves. People will PVP, but people are also not stupid and PVP at losses. This is why insurance boosted PVP to the extent it did. Trammel doubled OSI's subs instantly and grew in much larger rates. There are more average non PVPers than hardcore PVPers.

I will never be able to hold my own against a red, I honestly don't have the time or care to change this. However, I did participate in it with insurance and found fun in it.

I am not saying to add insurance, i am just pointing out if you make it less griefing for players, more will participate. If you want this hardcore feluccia ruleset, just don't complain about lower numbers. Many people do not walk the streets of Philly at night, people will always protect themselves and avoid dangerous areas when it's not worth it for them.

A game should be fun for all, not just the PVPers. They do not make this game anymore than me or you. In fact they wouldn't have anyone to randomly kill without us non PVPers. Think of lion king and when scar came in and had no balance.

 

[Sones]

I love these ideas!

If you want to boost PVP, I think you should look into what is preventing the average blue (me) into engaging.

OSI, introduced insurance... this skyrocketed PVP but killed the thieves. People will PVP, but people are also not stupid and PVP at losses. This is why insurance boosted PVP to the extent it did. Trammel doubled OSI's subs instantly and grew in much larger rates. There are more average non PVPers than hardcore PVPers.

I will never be able to hold my own against a red, I honestly don't have the time or care to change this. However, I did participate in it with insurance and found fun in it.

I am not saying to add insurance, i am just pointing out if you make it less griefing for players, more will participate. If you want this hardcore feluccia ruleset, just don't complain about lower numbers. Many people do not walk the streets of Philly at night, people will always protect themselves and avoid dangerous areas when it's not worth it for them.

A game should be fun for all, not just the PVPers. They do not make this game anymore than me or you. In fact they wouldn't have anyone to randomly kill without us non PVPers. Think of lion king and when scar came in and had no balance.

The difference is that Philly is real life, and this is just a game made of pixels. I don’t mind at all if people don’t like PvP: there’s plenty of PvP happening anyway. Just today it was total carnage, 50+ people mass PvPing all over cities and waypoints.

What bugs me is people trying to change the game instead of adapting to it. If someone is unwilling to take risks in a 2D pixel game, I honestly just feel sorry for them. You even said yourself that PvP is fun, but you’re afraid of losing loot when a full leather set costs like 300g and a single dungeon run gives ~20k. You can literally die 50 times for one dungeon run and still be fine.

OSI is completely item-based, which is why losing gear feels so bad there. You’ve got unique items with huge bonuses for both PvM and PvP, so of course nobody wants to lose that stuff. But that’s not how Outlands works. Gear is cheap, easy to replace, and doesn’t give crazy bonuses like lower mana cost, faster cast, faster cast recovery, no reagents, etc.

Sure, you can buy expensive gear for PvM if you want, but none of that is required for PvP here. That’s the big difference.

 

[AthenaVixen]

The difference is that Philly is real life, and this is just a game made of pixels. I don’t mind at all if people don’t like PvP: there’s plenty of PvP happening anyway. Just today it was total carnage, 50+ people mass PvPing all over cities and waypoints.

What bugs me is people trying to change the game instead of adapting to it. If someone is unwilling to take risks in a 2D pixel game, I honestly just feel sorry for them. You even said yourself that PvP is fun, but you’re afraid of losing loot when a full leather set costs like 300g and a single dungeon run gives ~20k. You can literally die 50 times for one dungeon run and still be fine.

OSI is completely item-based, which is why losing gear feels so bad there. You’ve got unique items with huge bonuses for both PvM and PvP, so of course nobody wants to lose that stuff. But that’s not how Outlands works. Gear is cheap, easy to replace, and doesn’t give crazy bonuses like lower mana cost, faster cast, faster cast recovery, no reagents, etc.

Sure, you can buy expensive gear for PvM if you want, but none of that is required for PvP here. That’s the big difference.

Yes, one is real life, but people literally do not like working and losing what they earned no matter how little. (The time spent to get they got when killed is real) People make 1000's in real life and get pissed being scammed out of 50$. If you are bullied in school, you should be happy and chill with it because it doesn't happen every time? Should the nerd just give up?

You can cook it and shape it however you like, but at the end of the day being murdered pisses people off and makes you rethink playing. This is true for a lot of players I'd say a large majority. That's why only the size of a small village still plays this game compared to 4 billion people.

For the most part, this game is not compatible for most players play style. 3.3 gamers to 100k uo players is 0.03% of the gamers. Most indie games have more activity. Its literally factual this game with the griefing system in place just bleeds players faster than they can gain. With today's games out there's not much return factors for this one. Every game where players kill others eventually all die from griefing. Argue it all you want.. but its facts. If this is your play style cool, but it pisses people off and no matter how you try to spin in it in a different way, it's just gaslighting. We feel what we feel.

Just to put it to perspective my little pony online had a peak of 83 million, UO peaked at 250k. UO Outlands peaks at 3k users online per day 300k people are playing stardew right now. Farmville had 80 million users. I am naming these to point out, UO has never ever reached these high numbers and never will as long as this murdering griefing exists. You can take any dumb game, hell there is 30k players playing the sims right now? THE SIMS??

You are right though, OSI is item based, and this is why dying here isn't as bad. Also why I am here and not on Farmville forums haha. Listen, I may sound like I am talking negative on it, but I am just speaking facts. Most people do not like being murdered, and most people took your advice and play a different game. This is why ultima online has a 0.03% hold on gamers and shrinking.

UO pkers have this funny thing about them, they say you don't like this leave then also wonder how to keep people playing. lol

I do believe OSI almost got it right by introducing Trammel, I think Outlands has it better with the rotating dungeon rules. But if you want more potential PVP stop loving holding the ones already doing it and bleeding your players and start thinking of ways to incite them to come and fight. Start finding ways so players can come on and choose their level of risk, because some days you are feeling more friskier than others.

 

[AthenaVixen]

To be more constructive.

I am someone who does not engage in PVP. I think these changes here are improvements. Actually, makes me think I can put a hit on someone who killed me and possibly get half my money back and feel better about my day? What?? As a "trammy" I'd say this is pro non-pvpers and punishes the reds if they aren't careful. Also hated being targeted by these mobs brought over so that sounds like another good change.

End of day, you have piss someone off to make another happy.

Maybe, instead of punishing reds though just put a huge reward bounty for red hunting in. Like make it lucrative to actually put in the work to kill these players. As a trammy killing them does nothing for me at all if I was even able to. (Spoiler I can't hahaha) It shouldn't be easy to be a red. I don't mean just not being able to go into towns but you should always be hunted with a growing bounty on you.

Like when you go to report, maybe that adds to a bounty after so many it pings players of your location for so long with a guaranteed bounty drop in bank? I dont know play around with things, but what i am getting at is killing a player who is really really good at what they do will need more than just the satisifaction of doing it for most.

 

[FRRago]

Actually OSI doubled in size after releasing Trammel. It died because this is 30 year old dinosaur that no one plays anymore.

Yeah. people quite often ignore all other mistakes and age of the game, blaming only the aspect that matters to them (aka, "TrAmMeL BaD")

 

[FRRago]

To be more constructive.

I am someone who does not engage in PVP. I think these changes here are improvements. Actually, makes me think I can put a hit on someone who killed me and possibly get half my money back and feel better about my day? What?? As a "trammy" I'd say this is pro non-pvpers and punishes the reds if they aren't careful. Also hated being targeted by these mobs brought over so that sounds like another good change.

End of day, you have piss someone off to make another happy.

Maybe, instead of punishing reds though just put a huge reward bounty for red hunting in. Like make it lucrative to actually put in the work to kill these players. As a trammy killing them does nothing for me at all if I was even able to. (Spoiler I can't hahaha) It shouldn't be easy to be a red. I don't mean just not being able to go into towns but you should always be hunted with a growing bounty on you.

Like when you go to report, maybe that adds to a bounty after so many it pings players of your location for so long with a guaranteed bounty drop in bank? I dont know play around with things, but what i am getting at is killing a player who is really really good at what they do will need more than just the satisifaction of doing it for most.

On paper making reds more attractive to kill is great, but unfortunately it may opens space for people abusing the system in attempt to systematically generate rewards.

Personally I think that it would be a good step toward making proper penalties for PKs to make the "red" status not a character flag, but an OutlandsID flag (effectivelly making all of a player's chars Red, forcing him to live the consequences of being an outlaw). The player is the active actor behind the killing, and a penalty only is real if it cant be ignored by just logging with another char.

 

[AthenaVixen]

On paper making reds more attractive to kill is great, but unfortunately it may opens space for people abusing the system in attempt to systematically generate rewards.

Personally I think that it would be a good step toward making proper penalties for PKs to make the "red" status not a character flag, but an OutlandsID flag (effectivelly making all of a player's chars Red, forcing him to live the consequences of being an outlaw). The player is the active actor behind the killing, and a penalty only is real if it cant be ignored by just logging with another char.

Oh wow.. i never thought about that. That would be a serious punishment. That makes a lot of sense making all their characters red.. I mean its the user like you said is the murderer not the toon.

 

[Michael]

Killing and thieving by definition is griefing.

Can you share your definition of griefing with me?

 

[Populus]

Another well thought out suggestion here, however things are fair already. I think it's only an experience and preparation issue.

 

[FRRago]

Oh wow.. i never thought about that. That would be a serious punishment. That makes a lot of sense making all their characters red.. I mean its the user like you said is the murderer not the toon.

Yeah; one of the things some people cite about being red is the impossibility of using cities services, aside the "pk city" - which is completely untrue currently since the player has access with any other char, That PK city currently has no reason to exists aside roleplay. It's one of the "high risk, high gain" features, but without the risk.

 

[Kamebos]

Gosh, why do i see that several of the most recent threads here are about how bad the PvP is on this server? It was like that when I last checked in a few years ago, it was like that when I last played in 2020, is it ever going to get better? I hope so, because I would love to come back.

 

[AreYouKidden]

UO PvP isn't everyone's cup of tea

 

[Kamebos]

UO PvP isn't everyone's cup of tea

I think it is most accurate to say that UO PvP isn't most people's cup of tea.

Also, good to see you again. I hope you are well.