What's new

Taming Overhaul Patch Testing Patch

oroechimaru

Grandmaster
this item works for frogs per players which is rad but doesnt match patch notes?

Affinity System
The Affinity system is a new progressive-bonus system that rewards characters for playing over time with a variety of different tameable creature types (requires a creature with a Min Taming of 50 or higher)”
 
Maybe take more than 80 SS if you want to spec your summons right? The fact that we can spec our summons to be super efficient, more so than pets, with 80 SS is a bit of a joke itself.. I personally don't have issues with the change - no one likes a nerf, but water ele's were far over tuned, and needed to be sorted - I think we should try these changes out in practice before complaining too heavily... 20 more SS, means dialing a SDi skill back by 5% dmg.. that's what UO is about, optimizing our templates to fit our needs.. Anytime there is a go to template, or summons, or pet - means there isn't a balance.

My guess - and I've no insider info on this, is that Luthius while grouping his traits, dropping it from 100 to 35, which makes it far easier to balance in the end, wanted to make sure the traits the water ele had were inline with what pets had, and wanted to make sure they weren't soo far beyond tank pets, to render tank pets useless for tamers.

Y'all should be outraged more that summon creatures are useless - and their stats don't increase with SS at all - while lower level pets are getting underdog...
The main reason why we don't use 120 SS and eldritch armor is because even with 30 points in the tome, summons are not efficient enough. At least that's the reason why I don't play that template anymore. I don't even see why I should use summons that don't have an upgrade like spell siren. I tried getting out of Ossuary without spell siren and without void armor would have died at least twice. Having eldritch armor and effective spirit speak skill bonus instead, would only make things worse. The wizard's grimoire is one reason more not play the pure eldritch template with high spirit speak, as the main idea of the grimoire is to do a lot of dps with spells, not summons. So why, other than haveing spell siren to survive running through a dungeon, should I spend so many skill points on spirit speak?
 

AreYouKidden

Legendary
The main reason why we don't use 120 SS and eldritch armor is because even with 30 points in the tome, summons are not efficient enough. At least that's the reason why I don't play that template anymore. I don't even see why I should use summons that don't have an upgrade like spell siren. I tried getting out of Ossuary without spell siren and without void armor would have died at least twice. Having eldritch armor and effective spirit speak skill bonus instead, would only make things worse. The wizard's grimoire is one reason more not play the pure eldritch template with high spirit speak, as the main idea of the grimoire is to do a lot of dps with spells, not summons. So why, other than haveing spell siren to survive running through a dungeon, should I spend so many skill points on spirit speak?
Then don't sink an extra 20 if you don't think it's viable - there are options - I main a summoner/mage myself, and I'm not seeing this as doom and gloom - you can get both perks with 100 SS - to keep your shield wall up - you lose 5% off an SDi - which you easily gain off the grimoire. This change to Waters has not crippled us in anyway, we just have to find our new feel good place with SS.. or don't at all.. Walk away from the crutch of SS.

Choose wrestling instead of SS, and get the charged spell bonus and don't do summons at all if you don't think they are worth it.. I've run the face tank void build before the grimoire, and definitely will again now after - and yes in Oss 4 as well.. with hinder on lightning, plus hamstring, it gives you plenty of opportunity to maneuver around mobs, and you do have paralyze if you need to meditate and reset. Water elementals were trivializing content, they are only working towards balancing it now.. Very few are even close to maximizing their grimoire yet, so we aren't even recognizing the full power of where mages are going to be - it's really powerful already at 20 points for me.. Even running eldritch armor with 64.5% mana refund and just flame striking off 1 FS scroll in Ossuary, I can fly through the mobs.. The eldritch synergies for damage are immense - especially now we make use of them with more refund now..

Happy to talk Mage Shop in discord - this summoner change is minor compared to the tamer changes, and it's not as crippling as people are saying - I'll leave the forums here for them to leave their feedback..
 

riin4

Neophyte
@Sindall excellent point and probably needs players to test various 110-120 pets (temple guards, black widow etc) that id love to see in action.

You could compare some items in the list. For instance some pets were deadly poison are now lethal:
uhm. I tested more than 6 hours various pets, only about pvp. I will write about PVP only.

Let's considering that the underdog and other stuff will be active in pvp (i hope so they will reverse it, or they will find a different way to manage the dps of 1 slot pets):

I don't care to apply deadly or lethal if the enemy can cure with one pot. I mean, if the poison that pets apply reflects the toon's one (tasteID cure% included), it would make sense but like it's now.... you can heal fast both, lethal or deadly with 1 pot, and if you don't heal them you will have almost the same dmg (6hp?) by a tick of poison.
So, I don't see any big differences. Only a small nerf to poison pets that were already quite weak (especially the big ones. now their dps became more ridiculous than already was).

My feeling (always talking about pvp tamers) is that instead to nerf 5x pets super dps and smoke dragons instantkills, they nerfed the most common big pets (smokes definitly deserved it) and bumped a bit (not enough?) the other big pets. .....but the 5x pets are better than before now, I'm wondering if this is as intended.

Other thing I have found, is that the burrow ability is a bit too strong. in particular on 1 slot pets.
 

Sindall

Novice
@riin4 Have you had a chance to test fiery leapers in PvP? They got a boost from what I can tell but I haven't been able to find anyone in the dungeons to test them on. I like frogs so I'm hoping they're better than they were.

I think I agree that in tuning down the larger slot pets the 1 slotters, especially with underdog, got significantly better. Not sure how that will play out in pvp especially if the unlocked pvm bonuses carry over to pvp damage.

On the PvM side, I got to play around with some of the more common pets, and I really like that the breath ability on dragons/drakes always do the big cone AoE attack now. I wouldn't call it OP, but things like swamp drakes will be much more usable for crowd control and blood drakes/dragons will more reliably get off bleed to a lot of targets to burn them down. The cap of 5 seems fair with that ability selected. I don't know if lemuras have always been so tanky but they soak hits really well.

There's just a lot pets to test.

I'm also not sure if the summoner changes are as bad as people think. I don't use purification and do okay with the water ele holding aggro. If it drops you can always summon a new one. The biggest benefit to being a summoner is that you have completely disposable pets.
 
I'm also not sure if the summoner changes are as bad as people think. I don't use purification and do okay with the water ele holding aggro. If it drops you can always summon a new one. The biggest benefit to being a summoner is that you have completely disposable pets.
The point is, that after this change they die within seconds and are rendered useless, unless you choose purification and spend more points in the tome. And it makes a huge difference if you have to use 50 mana to summon a new one every 60 seconds. Have you tried it out on the testserver? Try out a water elemental against a mob that deseases.
 
I am happy with the change that underdog will improve lower level pets for high level tamers in pvp but that the rest of the bonuses do not apply. It is still weird to have this be a pvm gate for pvp characters but at least it is the lowest level of the book to unlock.
 
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HibbiGibbi

Neophyte
I feel like 4 slot tames need some special attention. A reason to choose them. It is nice to only have 2 pets to heal, but so many are just lackluster with no real redeeming quality.

Perhaps 4 slots should be bumped to 5 slot and given some good utility?? For giggles:

4 slot spider- AOE webs and poisons? Not sure this is needed, but would set it apart.
Phoenix- AOE spellcasts? (would be unique)
Prowler- already AOE bleeds- knowing it is getting tuned back, but making it 5 slot and splitting the difference in the damage nerf?
Fortress beetle- maybe an "eartquake" at the end of a charge to AOE with? Also slap a fanny pack on it for 250 stones of carry weight on top of it's meaty HP pool?

I cant think of other 4 slotters currently- but wanted to post this here for thumbs up or down or discussion instead of getting lost in #test-shard on discord.
 
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Sindall

Novice
The point is, that after this change they die within seconds and are rendered useless, unless you choose purification and spend more points in the tome. And it makes a huge difference if you have to use 50 mana to summon a new one every 60 seconds. Have you tried it out on the testserver? Try out a water elemental against a mob that deseases.
Just hopped on test last night with my summoner. You're right, they die quicker. I didn't even go where disease and bleed would stack heavily but the damage reduction being removed from water elementals was also noticeable.

I should rephrase my remark about disposable pets for summoners. I do still think that's the greatest benefit and it's relatively cheap to not have to deal directly with damage. However, if you're a pure caster, dropping 50 mana (half your mana supply or all if you summon 2) to bring your meat shield up is detrimental to you doing damage only to have it die before you've recouped the mana. I use traps too so I have non-mana related ways to do damage while they are up but I know that isn't the case for everyone.

I guess I really don't know why this change was seen as necessary. Sure, every summoner has water elementals worked up because they're good. Not even great, just good, and the other summons don't cut it. When my tank (water ele) drops, the fire elemental only ever lasts maybe 15 seconds before it's destroyed. I've never even seen anyone seriously use an air ele. Summon creatures are kind of a waste as the upgrades don't really offer anything.

Rather than hurting something that seems to be working well, why not make the other summons more worthwhile? Forcing diversity for summoners can be done in more positive ways. I wish that daemons could live long enough in the harder areas of the game to take advantage of their abilities, or that earth elementals were incredible physical armored tanks. Or that air elementals did anything. EVs are the only other summon getting used but only at shrines.

I know this is the taming overhaul, but by introducing the changes to summons it invites this conversation. I hope more pure mages take a look at what's been done on test to provide feedback.
 
They tried forcing diversity in dungeons and it didn't work. Some players, especially mages, still won't farm in Nusero, Inferno or Cavernam.
 

Skrypt

Apprentice
DAEMON
- Change to 3 Slot
- Remove default trait DMG per Missing HP & Vengeance
- Replace with mechanics to synergize with Growing Fury DMG per Time Alive
- Unfortunately DMG per Missing HP mechanics directly conflict with Growing Fury, Greater Daemon, Corporeal Tether, Command Aspect, wasted SS/Eldritch HP bonus... making the concept awkward and unviable
- Unique playstyle is now beefy 3 Slot Hybrid role to pair with a 2 Slot and you heal/keep alive as it grows over time

BLADE

- Change to 1 Slot
- Change to 2.5sec cast time
- Unique playstyle is now expendable 1 Slot Support role to pair with two 2 Slot or with a 3 Slot

EARTH

- Bad because mediocre at both Tank & Melee DPS
- Water already Tank role, we do not need two tanks
- Earth must instead become best Melee DPS role

AIR

- Bad because it lacks a unique/useful role, no one knows what to do with it
- Water, Fire, Earth, Daemon now cover our primary Tank, Caster, Melee, Hybrid roles
- Blade already Support role with similar Bleed & AR Reduce abilities
- Air must change entirely to become unique... I propose Stealth / PvP role

CREATURE

- Topic for another time...

Each summon now has a specific role it is "best" at, essential for each's viability and use.
Changes to # slots allows for better variety of pairing options: 3/2, 3/1/1, 2/2/1
 
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DUBLINITE

Apprentice
To someone's earlier point, the summon changes do seem hidden in this patch and is going to leave a lot of summoners surprised and upset when it goes live. I'd suggest breaking it out to a different thread, or to Skrypt's suggestion working on a larger overhaul. There aren't very many ideal summon/codex ability combos...would really be nice to round them out and make it less clear what the meta is.

I did some runs on test center. The change to water is very noticeable, but I wouldn't say its the end of the world for a summoner that I think some of these posts imply it is. What makes me disappointed by nerfing their tankiness is that I'll be even less likely to run a combo of a tank and a fire ele. It might just be straight-out double tanks from now on. Rather than nerf their tankiness I'd rather see trade-offs for selecting siren or "tanky" features for reduced DPS...similiar to how aggressive stance in the macing codex is.

It is also going to get really annoying trying to keep a summon stone full. Sure, I don't have to double click my spellstone after every summon, but I also don't want to spend all my time double clicking summon bars to reduce summon stone usage as low as possible.

Another comment someone made earlier was that running high SS and Eldritch doesn't make any sense....I totally agree. Its really hard to find any combo of 150 points (120 plus eld bonus) that is worth much more than 110 points (80 plus eld bonus).
 

Skrypt

Apprentice
What makes me disappointed by nerfing their tankiness is that I'll be even less likely to run a combo of a tank and a fire ele. It might just be straight-out double tanks from now on.
Yes.
Already difficult to manage 1 Water Tank + 1 Fire Caster DPS.

We do not need 2 different Tank summons.
We need best in role utility from the other summons.
 

HibbiGibbi

Neophyte
My comments on different pets from the testing I've been able to do:

Tanks:
  1. Aegis Slime
    1. Did "ok'. But slimes (aegis, snowdrift, sand muck) all MISS their "formless" trait (damage turns to health). If you must take regen to give it to the frogs, please at least leave formless for the slimes.
  2. Colossal Poison Dart Frog
    1. Really cool tank- but it being 3 slots really limits what to pair it with. Suggest making it 2 slot (ding HP etc to make it fit?) Turn the "Giant Poison Dart Frog" to 1 slot.
    2. If they're meant to be tanks, maybe bump their base AR to 50?
  3. Snowdrift
    1. Was formerly a tank....but now doesnt have any tanking traits options except 2 and 8?? Is it meant to lose it's tanking role (especially without formless or regen)
  4. Eldritch Drake
    1. Doesnt have any defensive options. Eldritch drakes traditionally tanked/debuffer for wisp.. It doesnt even get mender as an option.

DPS:
  1. Acarid
    1. "Feed" (heal itself from melee) still feels bad. I cant see this trait every being used...at least double (or more?) the healing from it
  2. Swamp Drake
    1. Typically was the tank/hinder for the cave gorger. Now that it cant, what pet is to fill that role? A spider? Could the 3 slot black widow be made 2 slot, and be the only tank spider?
  3. Cave Gorger
    1. Feels like a re-skinned spider. Doesnt stand out or apart. Gorge (it's flagship ability) should have it's damage bumped I think.
Overall, the "opportunity" trait just feels so lackluster. The spiders I've tried swing so slow, or miss often enough, that they cannot take advantage of their own web ability anyway. Suggest webs duration be increased and the damage from opportunity turned back up. Also, could spiders get the "poison sting" mechanic like nox mages got to help their damage once a mob is poisoned?