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To the people saying nerf tamers..

#61
This exchange in general chat today sums up the debate:

Ruck1nFet4rdToday at 11:08 AM
Fuck tamer to 120 after the nerfs....even if they were slighly readjusted...just not worth at all
Mines at 105 and hes staying there...Barely use him anymore tbh what a waste of gold on SS and command :frowning:

The MonarchToday at 11:08 AM
taming should never be a viable pvp skill
shit's whack

Ruck1nFet4rdToday at 11:08 AM
Agreed but...you cant even fight back now...

The MonarchToday at 11:08 AM
all kill = no skill
if you are on a player with no resist or wrestling you deserve to die to one combo and one hallyhit

Ruck1nFet4rdToday at 11:09 AM
It might have been broken as fuck at 120 when fully decked out like launch tamers are, but for your middle of the road avg tamer it was never OP imo

(Orcs) GurzhirToday at 11:09 AM
lol

Kayak PaddleToday at 11:10 AM
What’s skillful about a target last hotkey?

DanfToday at 11:10 AM
all kill does = no skill but like

Ruck1nFet4rdToday at 11:10 AM
I never said it took skill
it doesnt

DanfToday at 11:10 AM
explo fs last target vs all kill last target

The MonarchToday at 11:10 AM
and these tamers crying about getting killed too easily dont have resist or wrestling

Kayak PaddleToday at 11:10 AM
Yeah neither requires skill

Ruck1nFet4rdToday at 11:11 AM
but I do think that even without resist you should be able to mount SOME kind of defense...300 points in taming (or more) and you cant even slighyl defend yourself any longer
I personally run wrestling on my tamer but no resist

DanfToday at 11:11 AM
my tamer is 5x mage, the pets feel like i'm hitting with a vendor bought double axe
 
#62
I think tamers aren't in a terrible place right now for PVP. I do think that maybe the PVP scalar shouldn't be flat across the board, but instead take into account the taming requirement of the pet in question, as in pets that require 75 taming would have somewhat lower scalars compared to pets that take 120 taming. That would make taming more closely mirror other skills in PVP, where additional skill points invested reward a proportionate increase in effectiveness, and it would solve the issue of builds like slug tamers, which required only trivial skill investment to achieve extremely high burst damage potential.
 

Maati

Counselor
Staff member
Counselor
#63
We always consider constructive feedback. If you have some ideas that will buff pets but also keep them balanced please inform us. At the moment we feel they are in a pretty good place. The most recent buffs brought the PvM pets into a desirable situation. We now have people who are choosing tamers in dungeons again as their viable PvP choice over other builds. We have watched multiple PvM tamers fight off PKs with little issues if the PvMer was adept in PvP.

As much as everyone wants all the pets to be good, that is nearly an impossible task. No matter how much we buff or adjust the scalars certain pets will always rise to the top and then require an adjustment. Think about every single game ever made, there is always a "cookie-cutter" strategy that will be the most popular. If we adjusted pets nonstop it would lead to endless nerf/buff cycles which are negative long term because players get tired of their work being nerfed.

We had to do something about the state that pets were in before the balance changes. Pets were one-shotting players and if that didn't happen the amount of damage that they were outputting was 2x the amount of burst damage that a player could do. On top of that, we watched endless engagements where pets would kill players with the tamer merely played defensive while PvP builds struggled to even get near the tamer because of the sheer amount of damage.

As far as builds like slug tamers, we have not seen them being as impactful as before. Their damage before was much greater than it is now. It was the PvP dungeon tamer build of choice. We have since seen a much lower amount of slug tamers, and the ones we do see are not as impactful as before where the slugs could do half-life burst to a weakened target every time they did a barrage.

Again, no balance is ever going to be perfect, we have to strive for some reasonable acceptance of this pet is okay, this pet is good, and this pet is great!

We have some new pets coming from Ossuary 4 as shown in the preview post and we will continue to add more pets as more expansions happen. The best we can hope for is that everyone who does their research and puts in the effort will find a pet that suits their playstyles and their strategies for PvM and PvP.
 
#64
Thanks for continuing to revisit and rebalance the taming changes. The more I practice with the new mechanics, the more comfortable I feel with them. Any announcement related to pvp is bound to provoke a passionate response, and I think people were experiencing a lot of anxiety at the prospect of a massive mechanical change; we all probably invest way too much time and emotional energy into this game and into our characters.

Even though pets are noticeably less powerful than before, I would say that the overall experience of fighting on a tamer has actually improved. Imo, being stuck limping through the dungeon at a maddeningly slow pace every time you had to fight, in exchange for one-shot pvp potential was not compelling gameplay. The improved speed leaves the player free to take more actions independent of the pets, instead of having to turn around every few seconds to babysit the world's slowest animals.

I think once everyone gets a chance to take a deep breath, they'll probably appreciate how the Outlands team handled these changes.

Or they won't and they'll just message you a bunch of hyperbolic DMs about how you've destroyed the hopes and dreams of everyone who still loves UO.
 
#65
We have watched multiple PvM tamers fight off PKs with little issues if the PvMer was adept in PvP.
An adept pvper could probably defend themselves on a crafter if they had to. This shouldn't be how you gauge it, unless you only want pvpers to play here.

If a pvm tamer has made reasonable efforts toward self-protection (such as carrying pots and pouches, having reflect up, keeping pets close, etc) they should have a chance of playing defensively and surviving/getting away or even killing the pk sometimes. And no, I'm not talking about any one-button one-shot "god of pvm and pvp" bullshit here. Something like this would be reasonable:

30% of the time, the pk kills the tamer
30% of the time, the tamer kills the pk
30% of the time, pets ward off the pk long enough for the tamer to survive the encounter and leave the area (a tie, basically, since the pk wins the turf but the tamer keeps their stuff)

pets would kill players with the tamer merely played defensive while PvP builds struggled to even get near the tamer
Pvp builds should struggle to get near a tamer. Protecting their owner is literally the sole purpose of pets, and they should be effective at that whether the attacker is a human or a mob.

Tamers invest a lot of skill points in taming, not to mention the time and money. Other common pvm builds, such as parry dexxers or scribe summoners, are strong in defense with much less investment. Tamers should be inherently strong in defense too.

As for wrestle and resist, they should offer an advantage, but not be required on a tamer build in order to survive. If you sacrifice pvm skills for wrestle and resist, you're actually a pvp tamer, not pvm.
 
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#66
If you have some ideas that will buff pets but also keep them balanced please inform us.
I'd say tie the nerfs to the action, not the class. If a tamer is red or attacking innocents (criminal actions) their pets get slower/weaker, but if they didn't initiate the aggression their pets act normally (pets on guard mode should not count as initiating aggression). That solves the tamer pk problem without screwing over everybody else.
 
#67
Tamers invest a lot of skill points in taming, not to mention the time and money. Other common pvm builds, such as parry dexxers or scribe summoners, are strong in defense with much less investment. Tamers should be inherently strong in defense too.

As for wrestle and resist, they should offer an advantage, but not be required on a tamer build in order to survive. If you sacrifice pvm skills for wrestle and resist, you're actually a pvp tamer, not pvm.
Lets not spread miss information here, a "PvM" summoner suffers the exact same thing a "PvM" tamer does. If a summoner foregoes wrestle & resist, so a summoner can actually get a decent DPS (a fraction of the damage a tamer does), then a summoner is at as much risk as a Tamer is. It's all in how you pick your skills. If you want to be a glass cannon tamer, then you suffer from a lack of defense, and people interrupting your farming. If you want to be a glass cannon summoner, or peace dexxer, or shadow rogue, you suffer the exact same thing, a lack in defense. All the top farming templates require an investment in skills to be truly effective, I run 120 Scribe, Taste ID, SS, and T10 Fire/Eldritch, and hit about 45 DPS on the regular, I'm guessing your DPS is 60+ as a high end tamer. Those Parry Tanks your talking about that actually have PvP skills, and PvM - probably only hit the 30-35 DPS range.

You want to be both a DPS machine, and a defensive tank, that's not going to happen, you have to spec your character appropriately if you want it to.
 
#68
Pets for the most part are still pretty weak. I run both a red tamer (115) and a blue tamer (120).

Pheonix with a lemura is laughable - basically you need both pets do be damage output. A Pheonix now is pathetic, and casters for that matter pretty bad.

The most powerful pet seems to be the blood worm. It's strong, does good damage, heals itself and also does a very damaging bleed attack whilst being very quick up your ass and takes 2 slots.

Most other pets are a laugh still.

I think they need a lil more tweaking imo.

Still, a tamer now is doomed 1v2 vs half decent mages.

I'm thinking about taking my 115 red tamer to 120 to get the gimpest pet - a blood worm
 
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#69
It's still pretty bad, but it's not laughably terrible anymore which is probably the best we can hope...yadayada
Reading anything you post just makes me cringe. Stop acting like an entitle little brat. The other guy even posted his script because you couldn't be bothered to look it up yourself and not even a thank you?

I am not even playing anymore, was reading up on Outlands and ended up reading this thread. Have to say, seeing players like you, it makes me happy that I actually have a life.

So here is some unwanted advice: grow up, learn some manners and maybe just stop bitching.
 
#70
Reading anything you post just makes me cringe. Stop acting like an entitle little brat. The other guy even posted his script because you couldn't be bothered to look it up yourself and not even a thank you?

I am not even playing anymore, was reading up on Outlands and ended up reading this thread. Have to say, seeing players like you, it makes me happy that I actually have a life.

So here is some unwanted advice: grow up, learn some manners and maybe just stop bitching.
Basically - tamers nerfed big time.

Blood worm is the best. Spell casters are bad - need a slight tinkering.

I was thinking maybe put spell casters at 35%? see if that helps, if too much 33% etc.

The lower pets might need more of a bump.
 
#71
Reading anything you post just makes me cringe. Stop acting like an entitle little brat. The other guy even posted his script because you couldn't be bothered to look it up yourself and not even a thank you?

I am not even playing anymore, was reading up on Outlands and ended up reading this thread. Have to say, seeing players like you, it makes me happy that I actually have a life.

So here is some unwanted advice: grow up, learn some manners and maybe just stop bitching.
What in gods name are you going on about? Your saying you have a life and people who play don't?STFU with all that wack shit. He was not coming off in a bad way he just stated his view. But you are coming off like a scrub who needs to be the one to really grow up.
 
#72
See people complain about money sunk into there tamer build. The build it self pays for it self. Not played one here at all im just pointing out the obvious. Tamer was always
the goto money maker and you could do it with immunity.
 
#73
I mean, personally, I think if something is too strong in PVM then other things should be made just as strong and buffed. That way you don't make someone suddenly too weak to do something, but rather someone else better at what they do. There's quite a few classes besides peacemakers and tamers that SHOULD be better for PVM but aren't because it would supposedly be TOO OP.

I mean, Everyone saying taming is OP is right, in my opinion, when compared to things like stealth backstabbers, pure defense dex, and poisoners capability. Don't get me wrong though as late game back stabbers with shadow aspect can one shot most late game entities, but if their special weapon affects like bleed proc'd at full potential, it would mean the same thing. In response to this though, an important question must be asked, how many builds can SOLO late game dungeons? Tamers can do so, we know this, and we know peacemakers can as well.

Let's say for a moment, that various other nerfed capabilities were fully powered, such as stealth backstab, dexer's proc affects were severely buffed each in their own way, and spellcasters got, say, a damage affect for PVM with certain spells and received a buff as well.

If we were to no holds bar improve PVM capability for other classes, would tamers be made obsolete?

Well, even if spellcasters were severely improved against PVM, they'd still need someone to tank for them if they pull more than one mob or run out of mana. If Back stabbers back stab but can't get into a good position to hide from OTHER mobs in the area, they usually don't have enough defense to survive, especially if revealed by PK'ers. Even the now full damage output dexxers can be overwhelmed by swaths of mobs removing their bandaging efficiency.

Tamers, though, don't have bandaid slips, don't have to worry about spell interruptions, have technically MORE tank potential than a dex thanks to their pets, MORE damage potential due to the speed of attack multiple pets can dish out at the same time + affects, and unlike a peacemaker build, don't have to worry about what's keeping them alive failing to proc.

Realistically speaking, taming IS super overpowered, even IF everything else was allowed to near full power (ignoring PVP)....

So why don't we buff the other abilities in this case? I get the arguments people would have, saying how this would make it so other things are SO MUCH MORE VIABLE than others, but.... Isn't that the point? At this moment, nothing is really more viable than tamers, and while YES, it takes time to grind and gather to be able to get those powerful pets, tamers have been literally catered to the point they can't LOSE their powerful pets if they die. Everyone else, if they die, lose everything they carried with them, even if full potential.

(I will grant, backstabbers could potentially ONLY carry a weapon and be able to gather, being in technically an even safer loot loss position than tamers, BUT this makes them highly vulnerable as well, and have far more potential to lose anything gathered if caught)

I honestly think nerfing tamers IS a very bad idea with how much time and effort is put into it, but I also think doing nothing about it, keeping it so viable, and putting too much stock into this game as a PVP-centric game is what is KILLING the player base. If you build for PVE, then it should only be natural players can easily and will easily kill you. Shouldn't that also mean that it is very easy for YOU to kill the Enemies/monsters? Like I said, the only one who can truly have an easy time with no player element is a tamer and peacemaker, all other classes essentially dance with death to varying degrees, the third safest and most effecient being a pure dex build. (disincluding late game of course, that should ALWAYS make you overpowered in any specialized field.)

So I will reiterate what I think should be done right here in case it was too subtle.

I think that all PVE-centric abilities that aren't taming and peacemaking should be buffed, from backstabbing bleed procs doing full damage, to bleed not having a cap for number of bleed affects, to poisoners getting a large damage buff against mobs (especially since they have usually 5 x more HP than players, this one always bothered me like what the hell?), Spellcasters should either get a direct damage buff against mobs (if they don't have good spell resist), OR gain specific spell affects against mobs.

Like I said, we don't want to NERF tamers, but we don't want them being without a doubt the most solo potential dungeon clear build with no argument aside from peacemakers. (Also, for the record, you can swap out peacemakers for tamers here in the argument in my opinion, in fact you can use both. Even if peacemaking procs fail, they can run a lot easier due to being able to make less dangerous mobs they run into a non-issue, unlike backstabbers who can't hide once seen.)

*EDIT* In addition, I know people use archery to make it easier to hide and backstab, as well as get away. In my opinion, you shouldn't be able to backstab with ranged weaponry to begin with.... If you DID buff backstabbing, I'd recommend removing ranged back stab ability, OR simply give it a different affect like an extra 200% damage instead of the potential 1000% usual backstabbing has, to simulate a headshot or something.
 
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#75
Yeah, I'm sure the 15 mil or whatever ungodly amount of money I spent will be paid back in earnings by 2021 or so. Maybe you should express opinions about things you actually know something about?
well its pretty quick and easy to make 15k gold feeding on late dungeon mobs, in some cases this can be done in less than 15 minutes if your pets are strong enough (since late dungoen mobs drop 1000+ gold usually + having SPENT 15 million gold, you should have pets capable as well), let's do simple maths and do 15 million / 15k. Supposedly that's roughly 1,000 trips. Let's say the tamer had perfect luck, that would take roughly 250 hours, or 10 days and 10 hours of effort exactly to make that much gold back....

Of course there are costs, but even if you lost half of your gold in pure upkeep each expedition (which can account for loss runs I suppose), that's still 20 days and 20 hours to make 15 million gold. Course that's if you play constantly, most people spend about 4 to 6 hours ish on this game a day with job included. Accounting for that plus the VASTLY OVERESTIMATE upkeep, it would take roughly (500 / 4) 125 days. Certainly not a year to make it back, more about 4 months of labor and effort. (Perfect run would take 250 / 4 = 62.5 days. Or two months.)

Oh, but I suppose you also make gold as you upgrade your pets, this whole thing is assuming you're making nothing as you build yourself up, is also not including the price for selling rare drops, which can go for an entire trips worth by themselves sometimes, and are much more likely to drop on the late game mobs, is not accounting for gold improvement in dungeons that have gold drop rate buffed, and so on....

But I supposed I don't know what I'm talking about going by what you said on my other post, eh Basia?

Jerk.
 
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#77
Kids complaining about a teamplate. This game is skill based deal with it
I wouldn't call macro management, inventory prep, and mechanic awareness a skill.... I'd say PVP takes skill, but its literally just hit and run and insuring your hp and dps is better than your opponents.

It's more skill based than World of Warcraft at least, I suppose.

The only games I think you can count as skill are games where there is little to no RNG that decides a fight, like if parry and spell casting depended on a random sequence of quick time buttons or something, which would be horrible. There is such a thing as skilled tacticians of course, but those are people who analyze their opponents weapons and armor, take into account their opponents skills, in order to trap them.

With that in mind, I believe the most "skill based" template is a pure PVP mage for the reliance of versatility and enemy management. I'm not talking those guys who spam mind blast and flame strike and paralyze, but those who use a large multitude of spells in conjunction, such as ALL the wall spells, major spells to initiate, and using small level spells to finish off nearly dead opponents for the quick casting benefit before they heal.

Again though, even with that PVP mage in mind, most of it is cooldown mechanics and ability management, there's no skill based freeshot targeting, nor any method to multicast with a quick time button sequence for output increasing, ect, ect.

Saying UO is a skill based game is like saying World of Warcraft is a skill based game. They're not. They're SM-RTS games, or "strategy management-Real time strategy" games, games where you manage individual abilities and mechanics and keep an order of operations in mind before entering active combat.

People call these type of games RPG's and MOBA's and so on, but really its just RTS with extra steps, and RTS is less skill and more knowledge, with the skill only coming from reflexive reaction to challenges, but considering the response to these challenges are vast majority pre-meditated, its still not so much skill as planning, and only in the response time can you call to any skill, but even then that's less skill and more just capability, the difference between the two being that a skill can be trained, while capability is something you just have natural capacity for.

To put this in perspective, let's actually look at a prime example of a skill based game, like Dark Souls. How much of that game is dependent on your abilities and sequence of their use vs dependence on the timing of their use. Then compare that to UO or World of Warcraft.

The strategy involved in Dark Souls depends more upon the individuals timing and response ability, rather than a preset operation involving planning like UO and World Of Warcraft.

Tl : Dr (TOO LONG DIDN'T READ BELOW)

IF THEY DO THIS YOU DO THIS, IF YOU ARE THIS DO THIS, IF THEY HAVE THIS REACT WITH THIS- are strategy responses, not skill responses. Reaction time is the only skill based component

YOU CAN DO THIS IF THEY DO THIS, BUT YOU COULD DO THIS TOO, BUT IF THEY DO THIS, YOU MAY WANT TO DO THIS- are skill responses, not strategy responses. Reaction time is important, but your reaction can vary wildly, and no preset mind of action is inherently a good idea and is situational.

The best way to sum it up is this: If planning and the execution of that plan is more important than simple reaction speed, you are NOT playing a skill based game. (With UO you still have that aspect of setup and planning being more important than how quickly you respond, but its not as bad as World of Warcraft.)
 
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#78
Pvp builds should struggle to get near a tamer. Protecting their owner is literally the sole purpose of pets, and they should be effective at that whether the attacker is a human or a mob.
How strong they should be is relative to other similar skills.
It's known. It's to 100 Tactics 100 Weap 25 dex. And since pets are a little slower than players, it's reasonable for them to deal somewhat higher damage than those skills.

You realize what you said above fits Weapons? You were going for some flavor text, but.

As for wrestle and resist, they should offer an advantage, but not be required on a tamer build in order to survive. If you sacrifice pvm skills for wrestle and resist, you're actually a pvp tamer, not pvm.
If your tamer is a dexxer and gets disarmed it might die, like a full dexxer could. Similarly if you're dumped by 2 attackers, while having no resist.

I'd say tie the nerfs to the action, not the class. If a tamer is red or attacking innocents (criminal actions) their pets get slower/weaker, but if they didn't initiate the aggression their pets act normally (pets on guard mode should not count as initiating aggression). That solves the tamer pk problem without screwing over everybody else.
No need, if the same doesn't have to apply to Weapons.


Pets for the most part are still pretty weak. I run both a red tamer (115) and a blue tamer (120).

Pheonix with a lemura is laughable - basically you need both pets do be damage output. A Pheonix now is pathetic, and casters for that matter pretty bad.

The most powerful pet seems to be the blood worm. It's strong, does good damage, heals itself and also does a very damaging bleed attack whilst being very quick up your ass and takes 2 slots.

Most other pets are a laugh still.

I think they need a lil more tweaking imo.

Still, a tamer now is doomed 1v2 vs half decent mages.

I'm thinking about taking my 115 red tamer to 120 to get the gimpest pet - a blood worm
They appear strong for the most part. A snowdrift is dealing good DPS. A bloodwolf is hindered by the Charge nerf, though, otherwise would be alright, too.
Lemuras are good, too.

Mage pets weren't as strong as physical pets before balance patches, DPS-wise. Perhaps they can get a buff, yeah.

In 1v2? Just like any template should.
 
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