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Comprehensive Solution to Camming - Make End-Game Great (and Inclusive) Again!

#21
We are aligned with other guilds, we've had both successful and unsuccessful attempts at bosses - the unsuccessful ones generally being that a guild will scout out your progress on the boss, and raid at the last 5%, so they can loot it, and run, while you've done all the work for them. That's not fun game play in my eyes, and where Rosen's idea comes into play, giving you a counter to the cammers, and 5% raids.

I don't like the idea of instances, you get people soloing or duoing content - the community as a whole is meant to police, but sometimes I think the advantage weighs to heavily to the raiders. Having a mechanic to slow them down, hold back visibility, in some cases they might raid in the first 15 minutes, honestly I'd rather that happened, and I lost a boss, than after 45 min to an hour, and you get nothing for the work you've done.

In some ways I'd almost say I'm not the target audience for this sort of content, as I don't really care to have my time wasted in this fashion, so I just find other activities I'd rather enjoy - but that kind of makes me the target audience for this sort of suggestion, as it could get me doing the content more often, and I think when a guild farms up the 1 million gold, then spends 45 minutes killing a boss, they really should have more tools in defense of their boss.

On public daily bosses however, the mechanics shouldn't be put in place.
 
#23
Some combination of all these ideas would go a long way. I'd still like to see camming illegal though. If dungeons get harder as Maati suggest it will get even easier for staff to delineate who is actually camming...no weak-ass build should be able to hang out on a level 3. I dont like the idea of increasing spawn on minis. That will create more camming for prestige and society jobs...and would wreck the viability of a mini boss summon system.
 
#24
Two problems arise with the idea to increase spawn.

1 - More spawn = more gold generated. This could cause too much gold to be generated if not handled carefully. This is especially true considering we are talking about lower dungeon levels where big gold drops currently exist.

2 - Stealth builds don't care unless there are more reveal type mobs, which can be a slippery slope to go down if every dungeon has those. The reveal/detect type mobs on Outlands are sort of OP, and a player wishing to remain in stealth doesn't have a great counter to these. "Theif" style mob pathing is a good way to go about placing these mobs in the world, so the player always has an option to avoid being detected.
 
#25
have anti stealth mobs spawn torwards end of dungeon instead of harder tier (like aegis hallways before boss is a nightmare / not so fun for non tamers however ignored by cammers/stealthers. have more antistealth mobs that are low/mid tier..
 

Rydia

Journeyman
#26
have anti stealth mobs spawn torwards end of dungeon instead of harder tier (like aegis hallways before boss is a nightmare / not so fun for non tamers however ignored by cammers/stealthers. have more antistealth mobs that are low/mid tier..
Some stealthers aren't there to cam. Pretty obnoxious to gatekeep content from some templates because of some idiots camming. If they are there to "cam" but are active players, and not afk bots, then that's fair play anyway.
 

Maati

Counselor
Staff member
Counselor
#28
Stealthing is a crucial role in this game and we have no plans to implement mechanics that destroy that role. We take all these things into consideration with our development.

We have recently made a large rule change against camming and we are working on more ideas that are going to have some major implementation towards more fun for everyone.

I would like to go ahead and place this here as well since it is also in discord:

Rule 13 was updated as follows:
13. Dungeon “camming” is not allowed.
This includes, but is not limited to, stationing a character to notify you of incoming players and broadcasting to your guild or alliance – via any communication method – the identity or number of incoming players to any portion of a dungeon. The first offense will result in a 7 day account ban, followed by a permanent account ban.
I hope everyone is aware of how serious we are taking camming and how it negatively impacts the game.

Stay tuned for more changes!
 
#29
Thanks Maati! Appreciate the involvement in the conversation.

A few of us are concerned about the general comments about boss camming and ghost camming being different than "dungeon camming though". Is staff able to clarify that further in rules?

What is to keep someone from camming a boss room (or outside room) solely for purpose of raiding then saying they were just camming the spawn later? That is camming for players. The comments in general chat have left some ambiguity on the camming stance when the comment is saying it is a different type of camming. Are we not punishing boss cams?
 

Maati

Counselor
Staff member
Counselor
#30
Hello Dublinite,

The rule is in regards to camming players; which means that if you can gain any advantage on player information in dungeons by using a positioned character that you are not actively playing, you are breaking the rules. This is probably the best and simplest way to put it.

In order to further clarify what we mean, it is probably easier to just make some examples:

1. A player has a character that is sitting outside the boss room in Maus 3. The character is hidden and doing nothing. This will be considered a cam and will result in a 7-day account ban as the player was in a fixed position, wasn't actively playing the character and is able to see other players running around doing things in the dungeon.

2. A player runs through Maus and checks the boss room, then runs through the gate out of the dungeon and proceeds to check all of the other bosses in a similar fashion. This will be considered fair play and is perfectly legal.

3. A player runs a character down to Maus and scouts the main boss room. Sees that the boss is up and moves his character outside the boss room while he communicates to the rest of his team what is going on. The player then proceeds to play that character, moves around scouting the boss and the rest of the dungeon actively. This will be considered fair play and is perfectly legal.

4. A boss is active and a guild is attacking the boss. This guild positions a character in level two to notify them of incoming players that might be hostile. The character is sitting there invisible, someone is watching it, but otherwise is doing nothing active besides reporting information. This will be considered a cam and will result in a 7-day ban on the account.

I hope this helps to clarify some situations as examples of what we think is camming and what is not. If you have more questions feel free to ask here. We try to be fair and always give the player the benefit of the doubt unless it is very obvious that you are doing something that is against the rules. We have even been clarifying the rules recently and have been pretty kind about some of the changes in our policies to help the players better understand them.
 
#31
Just a note, if I check the famous pk streamers to avoid then in my 2 second screen. Is it camming? because most of the streamers do live videos and thats is actualy a camming.
What you guys would do with all streamers? I dont want to be a troll but as i see the situation camming is like drug problem in a normal society. A guy could still camming and farming lvl 2 and tell their friends about incoming situations.

It is hard to come with an Idea that matches with the server concept. But In my opnion a Boss in a no-agressive ( so no guild could take control of a boss by murdering) area free for everyone with the loot spawns directily to their backpacks based on dmg might be a solution
 
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Maati

Counselor
Staff member
Counselor
#32
Hello Trimegistos,

Feel free to watch all the streams you want and to do whatever you want with that information. We enjoy watching streamers promote our server, but we have no control over what they display for everyone to see. If you get information from a streamer and use it to your advantage we cannot help or police that. The streamer can choose to play on a delay if they feel it is disadvantageous to them.

I hope this clarifies that situation.
 
#35
Hopefully this helps! My goal was more of creating unique fun spawns to hunt that also are effective against stealth cammers (but stealther pvmers find rewarding)
 
#36
From Walmart in the suggestions section of Discord:

Boss Camming Proposal

1) Boss windows - Boss windows as they currently are need to be removed. Instead they should be changed to a window based on gold farmed in that dungeon. Nusero mini boss for example would spawn when between 500k-1mil gold has been farmed in that dungeon. That would be the total gold farmed from all players in that dungeon. The total farmed should not be able to be seen by players, so players will not know if that boss is in window or if it is close to being in window.

2) [bossresults - Currenlty [bossresults can be used as a tool by those camming or scouting bosses to help them track their window. The current system adds results for a boss killed by none alliance members 1 hour after it has been killed, this is 5 minutes for bosses killed within the alliance. I would propose that there be a set time of day where boss results from none alliance bosses are updated into the results. This will make it much harder to use the [bossresults to track bosses.

3) Dungeon logging - Currently you can log a character outside of a boss room and log them back in hours or days later and they will still be in the same location. At one time we had a system where players would be removed from the dungeon after 20 minutes or so of being logged out. I would propose this system be put back in place. This will make it much harder to check on the bosses.

With these 3 systems in place it will make it much harder for players to cam or scout bosses. You can never elimate boss camming/scouting, it can't be done. The most active players and the largest guilds will still be killing most of the bosses. I don't know that it would change much as far as who kills the bosses, though it would make it very hard to cam and scout a boss.
 
#37
Perhaps camming isnt that great of an issue right this second with the boss scene in a bit of a lull but it won't stay that way. New content, tweaks coming to bosses, and new people entering that scene all the time.

Walmarts #1 solution is great! Devs have better info then us on what numbers to use to spawn the boss but i like the idea that its not just RNG but controlled by gold farmed out.

We made #2 suggestion forever ago it seems like. Very much needed because [bossresults as an intel tool feels much to artificial and gamey.

#3 is probably the most controversial but this also sounds like a better version. Currently you can just protect your looters anyways for 5 min while they log out and get the loot out at a later quieter time. I'd much rather have the dungeons kick people out of them again, biggest downside is re introducing safe loot extracting with that but we kind of already have that now.