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Dexxer vs Mage PvP Balance: Skill Requirements, Costs, and Effectiveness

Brigog

Neophyte
Over time, there's been an increasing number of discussions about the PvP balance on the Outlands Shard, particularly focusing on Reds/PKs. While I thoroughly enjoy both PvP and PvM in Ultima Online, I believe there is a growing disparity between different character builds, particularly between mages and dexxers, which contributes to some of the animosity directed at PvPers, especially PKs.

In this post, I want to explore this imbalance in more depth, with a particular focus on the stark differences in skill point requirements, cost burdens, and overall effectiveness between dexxers and mages. I'm interested in hearing if others share this view, and ideally, we can work toward a more balanced PvP system.

Dexxer vs Mage Gear Costs:
One of the most glaring disparities between dexxers and mages is in their cost to maintain and remain competitive. Consider the following:

Mage Costs:
  • Mastercrafted Leather: 500 gold
  • Mastercrafted Spellbook: 500 gold
  • Wizard's Satchel: 500 gold
  • Reagents (50 of each): 2500 gold
  • Heal/Cure Potions: 500-1000 gold
Total: 4500-5000 gold

Dexxer Costs:

  • Mastercrafted Plate: 3000 gold
  • 1H Weapon + Shield or 2H Weapon: 2000-2500 for basic iron, but higher-quality metals/woods can push this up to 35,000+ gold
  • Mastercrafted Quiver (if archery): 1000-30,000 gold
  • Potion Satchel: 1000-30,000 gold
  • Potions (healing, cure, refresh): 1500-2000 gold (dexxers tend to carry more due to reliance)
  • Bandages: 750 gold
Total: 9,250 gold to over 100,750 gold (without upgrading armor)

While both builds carry a cost burden, dexxers tend to incur much higher gear expenses, especially if they aim to be competitive with high-quality weapons or gear. This difference in cost creates an accessibility gap. A mage can become PvP-ready for a fraction of the cost, whereas a fully geared dexxer could potentially spend upwards of 10x more.

Skill Point Requirement Disparity:

Mages Core Skills:

  • 100 Magery
  • 100 Meditation
  • 100 Wrestling
  • 100 Evaluating Intelligence

Variable Skills:
  • Parry
  • Resisting Spells
  • Alchemy
  • Tracking
  • Archery or Melee (Swords, Maces, Fencing)
  • Tactics

Dexxer Core Skills:
  • 100 Weapon Skill (Archery/Swords/Maces/Fencing)
  • 100 Anatomy
  • 100 Healing
  • 100 Tactics
  • 100 Parry
  • 100 Resisting Spells

Variable Skills:
  • Lumberjacking (if using axes)
  • Tracking
  • Magery (for utility)
  • Poisoning
  • Taste Identification

Dexxers, unlike mages, have to invest heavily in skills that provide combat effectiveness, damage mitigation, and healing. This results in a more crowded skill template, leaving little room for flexibility. For instance, dexxers need to invest points in Healing, which is vital for sustaining themselves in combat, whereas mages rely on the simpler and faster Magery for healing and utility.

This difference in skill requirements further demonstrates the imbalance between the two. Mages have more flexibility to invest in utility skills (e.g., Tracking, Alchemy), while dexxers must focus most of their points on staying alive and dealing damage, leaving less room for specialized PvP adaptations.

Defense & Damage Mitigation:

When we compare the defense capabilities of mages versus dexxers, the disparity becomes even more pronounced.

Resisting Spells at 100:
  • 12.5% spell damage reduction (minimum)
  • Up to 37.5% spell damage reduction (maximum)
  • 25% chance to absorb spell damage from creatures (but none in PvP)
  • 100% chance to avoid spell interruption from creatures/environmental damage (but not PvP)

Parry at 100:
  • 50% chance to parry melee attacks
  • 25% chance to parry spells
  • 50% reduced stamina loss from damage
  • Armor rating (AR) is boosted by parrying skill when using shields

From these stats alone, we see a clear imbalance. A dexxer with Parry has a 50% chance to outright block melee damage, and even when hit, their stamina loss is reduced, making them more durable in melee combat. In contrast, a player using Resisting Spells can reduce only up to 37.5% of spell damage, but they have no chance to outright avoid damage as dexxers do with parry.

Additionally, mages enjoy the advantage of range, making it harder for dexxers to maintain consistent damage output. Dexxers not only need to close the distance (often taking damage on the way), but they also have fewer ways to mitigate magical damage effectively, putting them at a disadvantage in almost every engagement.

Cure Potions & Poisoning Skills:
With recent changes to poisons, the gap between mages and dexxers has widened even more. Dexxers who specialize in poisoning are required to spend 240 skill points in Poisoning and Taste Identification to achieve lethal poisons, yet this is mitigated easily by the availability of cure potions. The ease with which players can spam cure potions trivializes the skill investment dexxers make into poisoning, which has resulted in many poison-based builds becoming far less viable in PvP.

Scripts and Automation:
Lastly, we need to address the growing use of automation in PvP. Mages, who already benefit from lower skill requirements and greater flexibility, can use scripts to further enhance their reaction times, healing efficiency, and combo execution. Auto-heal, auto-cure, and predefined casting orders allow mages to execute complex burst damage combos at speeds that are difficult to match manually. Dexxers also benefit from some automation, but the sheer burst potential mages can achieve with scripted explosion potions, precast spells, and spell combos is overwhelming.

Couple this with the off-screen targeting capabilities of many mage scripts, and dexxers—especially melee builds—are left scrambling to keep up in a meta that increasingly favors mages.

Closing Thoughts:
The goal of this post is not to complain or cry for nerfs but to highlight the existing imbalances between mages and dexxers in PvP, specifically around skill point investment, gear costs, and the effectiveness of both defense and offense. Mages have far more flexibility, lower costs, and easier access to automation, whereas dexxers are burdened with high costs, limited skill points, and inferior damage mitigation options.

I welcome feedback and constructive suggestions, as the ultimate goal is to work towards a more balanced PvP experience on this shard. Thank you, Owyn, for your continued dedication to making Outlands the best UO experience.
 
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The comparisons you are making aren't very accurate. For example, the loadout costs are very simliar. Mages should have potion satchels as well, and both have the opportunity to buy expensive colored satchels or they can just go with the cheaper normal leather ones.

The more important questions I've seen regarding mage/dexer PvP balance are 1) Why dex doesn't provide a CD reduction on rope and 2) Why all meaningful PvP revolves around group combat where the mage has an advantage and not small scale combat where the dexer has an advantage.
 
While I acknowledge your point that mages can also use higher-tier potion satchels, my observation has been that mages generally don't require them to the same extent dexxers do. Mages can rely on their spells for healing, curing, and utility functions, significantly reducing their dependence on potions. In contrast, dexxers, who rely heavily on consumables like potions to compensate for the lack of instant healing via spells, often must invest in higher-tier potion satchels to remain competitive, especially in extended fights. This is particularly true when you consider how critical potions are for survival in tight PvP encounters, where timing and availability of heals are everything.

I intentionally avoided diving into group PvP in my initial post because, as you rightly pointed out, the imbalance is exacerbated even further in group settings. In group PvP, the mage's toolkit range, area control spells, crowd control, and instant healing provides a clear advantage over dexxers, who often find themselves overwhelmed or unable to maintain pressure without risking death. Group combat amplifies the gap in survivability and mobility that already exists in small-scale encounters, but at a much more pronounced level.

As for reducing the cooldown on rope for dexxers, I don’t believe that would fundamentally address the core imbalance. Even with a shorter cooldown, mages with scripts, particularly those who have invested in Alchemy, can burst down opponents almost instantaneously. A mage leveraging scripted targeting and potion automation can string together devastating combos that leave a dexxer with few counterplay options other than retreat, and even that often doesn’t save them.

The core issue here is that dexxers are locked into slower, more predictable healing mechanics. Bandages, while reliable, come with a delay, and they can’t match the instant casts mages have with Greater Heal. This delay puts dexxers at a significant disadvantage, especially in the face of a mage’s scripted burst combo. Additionally, Chivalry, which could have been a form of quick healing or utility for dexxers, is rendered nearly useless in PvP, as I mentioned previously. Without access to Chivalry's healing or buffs, a dexxer’s only real options are heal potions (on cooldown) or bandages (with a time delay), which pale in comparison to the mage's superior healing flexibility.

This disparity in burst potential and healing options is one of the key reasons why small-scale PvP, where dexxers should theoretically shine, often still favors mages. The gap in survivability, combined with the ease of executing high-damage mage combos, leaves dexxers struggling to keep up, even in situations where mobility and quick engagement should be their strength.

Ultimately, the real issue isn’t the cooldown of a rope, but rather the fact that mages, with their combination of range, instant heals, and scripted burst potential, have access to a far more reliable and less cooldown-dependent toolkit. This imbalance, especially in small-scale PvP, needs to be addressed if we want to bring meaningful balance between dexxers and mages.
 
I'm confused - from everything I read I feel like you are mixing PvP and PvM in this analysis? Especially when it comes to loadout - why does a dexxer require 35k in weapons, and 30k in potion satchel - no one runs their dexxers with that loadout? Am I wrong in that?

If I am wrong in that - then why does a dexxer even require parrying? I've never had it on a PvP build. And why doesn't a mage require resist if a dexxer requires parry & resist? A dexxer carrying a shield is going to be near fodder against a mage. And have you ever tried to kill anything as a 5x mage? A mage basically requires an SDi (and even then most mages struggle) or some other form of damage dealing to kill anything.

We've seen these posts pop up numerous times throughout the 6 years of Outlands, where everyone claims that Mages are OP and Dexxers are not - and yet it's widely accepted in the PvP community that Dexxers have the advantage 1v1 - you just have to survive the initial dump of a mage, and then it's all about the dexxer. And that's fairly easy to do with the ability to pop a pouch, start a bandage timer, and change the engagement window - and ropes to rope out of the initial dump range, and run to get a bandage. With weapon cycling - and interrupts - it can even be tough to get the initial dump off - and then the variability of mage damage plus resist.

The reality is the player makes the template, the template doesn't make the PvP'r. Most good PvP'rs will tell you they play mages because its far more engaging with all the spells, and maneuvers at your disposal, and because they transition in and out of groups much easier - but a dexxer with 60 magery has plenty of maneuvers, and are extremely dominating - and if that dexxer has archery they are fit for groups too. And while you can say but a dexxer doesn't take magery - Outlands PvP is loosely based on a T2a era - where the hybrid was the meta - a mix of magery & weaponskills. Comparing the two ends of the spectrum (Dexxer vs Mage), doesn't even really make sense.
 
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While some of my comparisons might touch on PvM dexxers versus PvP mages, it’s still highly relevant because PvM dexxers regularly have to engage with PvP red mages, whether it’s to run for their lives or to fight what often feels like a futile battle due to reds actively hunting PvM players. If we ignore this reality, we’re essentially saying that players geared and built for PvP should simply run over anyone focused on PvM. By that token, it becomes no different than shooting fish in a barrel, which I sincerely hope isn’t the dynamic you’re advocating for.

Your own points reinforce this disparity. You ask why a dexxer would even take Parry in PvP. Traditionally, Parry should provide a meaningful defense against both physical and spell damage, but in PvP, it only protects against melee attacks. Compare that to how Resisting Spells works for mages it provides damage reduction from spells in PvM but is heavily diminished in PvP. Meanwhile, Parry for melee builds remains just as effective in both PvP and PvM, providing no special disadvantage for mages, but heavily limiting dexxers who might otherwise benefit from a defensive option against magical damage. This disparity leads to mages having a clear advantage in both offensive and defensive capacities.

On top of that, with the recent buffs to Alchemy, mages have become even more formidable. The ability to incorporate explosion potions into burst combos is now stronger than ever. Please explain to me how a dexxer can do 90% of someone's health nearly instantly the way a mage can with their combo of spells and potions? It’s simply not possible. You mention that all a dexxer needs to do is survive the initial dump, but what you’re overlooking is that this combo doesn't drain a mage's mana significantly, allowing them to repeat it multiple times. The cooldown on explosion potions is brief, and by the time a dexxer has managed to escape the first combo, they’re likely running for their life with limited healing options, whereas the mage can easily reset and go again.

Furthermore, let’s talk about Parry in more detail. For dexxers, Parry may block melee attacks, but against mages, it’s far less useful. Mages can dodge 50% of melee attacks when using Parry in conjunction with a shield, while a dexxer has no comparable way to mitigate spell damage effectively. This, combined with the mage’s access to fast healing options like Heal or Greater Heal and their use of potions or bandages, makes it exceedingly difficult for a dexxer to finish off a mage.

Now imagine if the mechanics were more balanced, what if Parry still worked against spells in PvP? What if Resisting Spells had the same effectiveness in PvP as it does in PvM? What if Chivalry, a skill heavily used by dexxers, actually provided meaningful healing or buffs in PvP, the same way Magery does for mages? These mechanics already exist in the game, but the disparity in how they function across PvP and PvM creates a one-sided playing field. Similarly, Poisoning is a highly skill-intensive path for dexxers, requiring a full 240 skill points to reach maximum effectiveness, yet it’s trivialized by spammable cure potions that require no skill points and have no cooldowns. In contrast, mages get far more value out of their skill investments.

Finally, I have to address your last paragraph. You suggest that players choose classes because they’re more "engaging" in PvP. While this may be true for a few dedicated players, the reality is that most people gravitate toward the most effective or overpowered builds in PvP. This isn’t unique to "Ultima Online", it’s a phenomenon seen in almost every game with PvP. People want to win, and they’re going to choose the class or build that gives them the best chance of doing so. While there are always outliers who stick with their favorite class regardless of the meta, the majority will flock to what’s strongest, and in this case, that’s clearly the mage.
 
I agree there is some discussion that can be had comparing the effectivness of PvP Mages vs. PvP Dexers.

However, comparing PvM templates (both mage and dexer) to their PvP counterparts is comparing apples and oranges. They are templates designed for wildly different activities. Why would a 100% balls to the wall PvM template expect to perform well in PvP? Conversely, the same applies to PvP templates in PvM. PvM only players have a couple different options.... they can pick up tracking to avoid it altogether or they can pick up some PvP defense skills (Resist/Magery/Wrestling) to gain some resilience when a PvP situation unfolds.

The decision is left in the hands of the players - which I think is the best solution here. It's up to us how much risk vs. reward we are comfortable with. No one template can do it all. I think it's rediculous.... the amount of players that max out on every single DPS PvM skill they can think of and then complain because they fold like a house of cards when PvP arises. There are risks to making a glass cannon, that's all a part of the checks and balances in our little game.
 
I agree there is some discussion that can be had comparing the effectivness of PvP Mages vs. PvP Dexers.

However, comparing PvM templates (both mage and dexer) to their PvP counterparts is comparing apples and oranges. They are templates designed for wildly different activities. Why would a 100% balls to the wall PvM template expect to perform well in PvP? Conversely, the same applies to PvP templates in PvM. PvM only players have a couple different options.... they can pick up tracking to avoid it altogether or they can pick up some PvP defense skills (Resist/Magery/Wrestling) to gain some resilience when a PvP situation unfolds.

The decision is left in the hands of the players - which I think is the best solution here. It's up to us how much risk vs. reward we are comfortable with. No one template can do it all. I think it's rediculous.... the amount of players that max out on every single DPS PvM skill they can think of and then complain because they fold like a house of cards when PvP arises. There are risks to making a glass cannon, that's all a part of the checks and balances in our little game.

Basically all of my PvM templates can PvP to some extent - I carry 60 resist on my dexxers to go with their weapon skills, my mages generally have wrestling plus at least 60 resist. And they all farm extremely well. I also have some pure glass cannon templates for grouping with - but know that I can be fodder due to it. Risk vs Reward as you say.