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Feedback: Too unfriendly to new players

Mental

Neophyte
Note: This turned out longer than I expected. I’m dictating so it’s easy to just talk and have it transcribed. It’s just feedback, I expect no reply. Admins can read it any time they choose to, so it doesn't matter how long it is. Doesn’t hurt to give extra feedback.
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This is for the admins, sort of an exit interview, if they wish to read it… or not. I likely will not come back to read or debate – I just wanted to leave some impressions for a team that obviously cares, and puts a lot of time into making this right.

As a new player, and a returning player, I keep getting pushed away from this shard. I keep seeing posts about bringing new players in; I saw on discord a post about sniping people’s streams and how that affects new players wanting to play here etc… so I know that the admins want to bring in new players – they seem to care about that. But damn, they make it difficult for new players to get started. Hands down, this is the most amazing, most advanced UO shard I’ve ever played, and also hands down the most anti-social server I’ve played. Here is what I mean.

I’m not a kid any more. I’m 48 years old. I was a kid when UO came out and I played it out of my college dorm room. I closed beta tested UO, and then became a counselor. I played, and PvPed, quite a bit on Pacific, while I counseled on Oceania first, later on Atlantic and Great Lakes, until our queue went completely cross shard. I ended up an SLC before I quit and deployed overseas for a few years, and could not dial in from overseas.

I’m saying this to show I’m not a complete newb to UO, I have extensive experience not only with the players we had, but also with the way things work in the background, how decisions are made and so on.

I have never seen a more anti-social setup than as it is here, where bad behavior is rewarded the way it is here. I understand I can go kill in a Sanctuary dungeon until I get set up and can make enough to replace what I lose. But with crafting, I am finding it nearly impossible to get started. I go out mining, I get killed by reds, I go out lumberjacking, I get ganked. I move my lumberjacking spot, ganked again. I get followed around and have my boards stolen while lumberjacking, and then reds show up as backup. So it's coordinated. People are killing new players on this server for a few hundred boards. At one time I had a couple thousand boards, but that’s still only a quarter of my pack weight. I can’t even keep that. A quarter of my pack. :(

Every time I go back to zero. I’ve lost hours of my time harvesting as a newb, and my carpentry and blacksmithing are still at 50 because it’s so much easier and more profitable to kill new players than to do the work yourself. Those people that stole my thousands, or tens of thousands in gold in harvesting materials, may only pay 2,000 gold IF they step out of their house as a red and get killed. It is easier for a red to just wait and listen to the chopping noises, then log into their house, just appear out of nowhere, and take the few hundred boards, than to actually come out and log.

And I know about tracking, I know about paying attention nonstop, being vigilant… trust me I know. But I have a family. I have a disabled dog that may need me to jump out of the chair and help him. If my kids or my wife need me, I may need to look away from the screen for 15 to 20 seconds to see what they need. And in those 15 to 20 seconds, I am finding there is such an overwhelming overabundance of antisocial people on this server, I’m just too old to keep starting from scratch every few hours because of them.

This server would be so amazing if you could put in real penalties for murder and crappy, antisocial behavior. I know we had it right on OSI, because we had reds, and it was fun, but it was not as widespread as this. Newbs could get started and level their crafts. You could harvest or mine for hours without seeing a red. With no tracking mechanics even needed. At least get started with some entry level materials, like plain non-colored boards. As it is right now, you have the greatest UO server that I’ve ever seen, that is just not very friendly to new players wanting to start up, because it lets bad people do anything they want, with nearly zero punishment. In fact, I’m surprised that I don’t see absolutely everyone ganking everyone, since it’s set up that way. That tells me that there are some good people here, but the bad element was allowed to proliferate to the point where I’m just not nearly having the experience I long for, or the fun I remember.

I’m repeating myself as I’m dictating all of this and it’s easy to talk. I truly think this is the greatest UO shard I’ve played since OSI all those decades ago. There is so much amazing work here. But, at least for me, it all falls apart due to the simple fact that it’s also the most anti-social server I’ve been on. Asking to join a guild has resulted in zero communication on this from anyone over the last two weeks. I haven’t randomly run into any community events, player organized taverns or hunts, nothing… seen no Seers or Counselors. I’ve just been able to play by myself, and I was killed for no reason a few times. They don’t even benefit from killing me, I don’t think, I’m not carrying that much – it’s just the culture of the shard. People don’t help each other out here; they just kill each other.

Kill, kill, kill – because there is absolutely nothing stopping you from doing that. 2000 gold? I can pay that and I have nearly nothing. Most of my crafting skills are at 50, and I can’t get enough mats to train them up, but I can pay 2000 to kill someone.

Anyone can.

I have never seen antisocial behavior in this game to the degree it is on this shard. Sure, there were reds on OSI servers. I’ve spent countless hours chatting with them, taking their calls, just interacting. But the sheer number of such people here, and the seemingly complete lack of real control around such behavior makes this very unpleasant. If I log out night after night with nothing to show for my time, because someone really wanted my 1000 boards -- or my ore, or to kill my pack animals… just not worth my time.

But it is worth their time, because they are established, and it costs them 2000 gold to kill me for my 1000 boards. And because the inflation is so bad and the prices are not realistic and are hyperinflated, those 1000 boards may cost 20,000 gold. Newb materials that newbs need to get started cost way more than the newbs can afford to replace, getting killed over and over for them.

They get 10 times more income from killing a newb who spent a couple of hours lumberjacking than they could ever pay as a penalty.

I don’t know how you fix that. Too much money on the server with no real punishment. I am not here to make suggestions about a server I know little about. I do know you have the most technically, and cosmetically, advanced shard I’ve ever seen, that concurrently has the worst underlying social systems I’ve seen. I’m pushed away again. This is my second attempt on the server, years apart.

When it’s hard to find people to play with, hard to find a guild, and everyone is incentivized to just go after each other all the time… it’s just too hard to get started. Like I said, I’m almost 50 now and I have a family, I can’t lose a couple hours every day and start fresh the next day, simply because everyone and their dog has a red, because that’s the spirit of the shard. That’s just a waste of my time I could be spending with my family, or at least, playing a game that is more friendly and has a stronger community, and is more helpful to the new arrivals.

Taking a break again, hope to come back and see a more friendly environment when I do. It would be so nice to be able to get a few hours in and go to bed feeling I’ve made some progress, and can continue tomorrow. If I’m not safe, even as a newb just starting up characters, and I can’t even lumber right outside a town like Terran, close to the town gates, because the reds don’t let you, where the heck can I go? Stay on shelter and lumber there? Sorry, that’s no fun.

Hope you appreciate the feedback, as I’ve appreciated the chance to explore the shard. I was just about to start building my own rune library, make my own Witcher set on another toon (book by book as I can manage), and explore all you’ve built; I was really looking forward to it and was in the beginning stages of that. There is so much to see here. I just don’t feel safe my time won’t be wasted over and over and over by people who just want to do it cause it’s fun for them, or they make their money on killing new players. It seems that's a coordinated effort here. And time is really the most important thing to me. I’m not mad at getting killed, this is UO! I’m disappointed it’s set up so it happens over and over because it’s just better that way. I can’t recover all the time lost, and it’s just not getting any better with each day.

Thanks and best of luck!
 
We appreciate you taking the time to leave this detailed feedback. While we’re sorry to hear that your experience wasn’t what you hoped for, we also want to clarify a few points.

Outlands has one of the most active and engaged communities in UO—with constant player-run events, taverns, and guild activities happening daily. Our guild recruitment channel is active in Discord (which has nearly 20,000 active users), and many guilds are constantly looking for new members. Seers and Counselors are always available and actively contribute to content development and support, but are mandated to remain invisible to not interfere with your gameplay unless they are answering a Help Request which requires otherwise.

That said, Outlands is an open-world, player-driven shard—meaning player interaction is what you make of it. It is not the shard’s job to find a community for you; it’s up to you to immerse yourself in the communities that fit your playstyle. Many players thrive in Outlands by finding a guild, participating in events, and engaging with others—which significantly changes the experience.

The PvP and open-world risk are core to UO’s design and won’t be changing. However, there are many ways to mitigate risk, protect your resources, and find safe spaces to progress—all of which are actively used by thousands of players every day.

We wish you the best and hope that, should you return, you take advantage of the many resources available to make the most of your time here.
 
Outlands has one of the most active and engaged communities in UO—with constant player-run events, taverns, and guild activities happening daily.
Oh I know. You truly have an amazing server. I just haven't been able to get started on it as a new player.

The issues I see regarding inflation, inability for new players to catch up, and the overwhelming numbers of reds on this server -- well, they make it less than fun, and pretty hard to get set up and started.

I'll take some time off and see if I get pulled back. I had an issue with housing 4 years ago, but now I came back to some amazing changes regarding that. Double the size of rental rooms, IDOC lotteries, new lands etc... Huge improvement! Job very well done!

I'll come back some time and see if the reds situation has been fixed as well. OSI servers were exponentially more friendly to players in that aspect, with the stat loss, and PK penalties being commensurate to the server wealth.

Thanks for the message, I'm glad you appreciate feedback. I knew you would. I see lots of suggestions have made it in over the years.

Keep it up!

See you in the future.
 
Oh I know. You truly have an amazing server. I just haven't been able to get started on it as a new player.

The issues I see regarding inflation, inability for new players to catch up, and the overwhelming numbers of reds on this server -- well, they make it less than fun, and pretty hard to get set up and started.

I'll take some time off and see if I get pulled back. I had an issue with housing 4 years ago, but now I came back to some amazing changes regarding that. Double the size of rental rooms, IDOC lotteries, new lands etc... Huge improvement! Job very well done!

I'll come back some time and see if the reds situation has been fixed as well. OSI servers were exponentially more friendly to players in that aspect, with the stat loss, and PK penalties being commensurate to the server wealth.

Thanks for the message, I'm glad you appreciate feedback. I knew you would. I see lots of suggestions have made it in over the years.

Keep it up!

See you in the future.

I appreciate the thoughtful feedback, and I'm glad you've noticed the improvements we've made over the years.

That said, our design philosophy is intentionally different from the official shards. The official shards offer Trammel, and if that type of gameplay is more suited to what you enjoy, then that might be a better fit. Outlands has always been designed around risk vs. reward, and we believe that’s what makes it stand out. Either way, play what makes you happy, this is a game after all.
 
Unfortunately, this server has just become too popular and is sort a victim of its own success in my opinion. The game mechanics here are exceptionally superior to anything out there. There is a strong team of admins that are united in trying to bring a balanced player experience. However, most of that focus is on the existing player base.

The new player experience is exceptionally awful here in most every way. The dungeon on shelter island and the training facilities offer you a good ability to get a character up and running in a few hours or a couple of days. That really is where it ends though. Progressing to any areas outside of that dungeon, including the ones designed to be the "next stage", are just too tough for new players. It can take up to 5 mins to cut down a single npc, just to get 50 to 100 gold. Gold drops like that take a long time until a player has any chance at being able to get an aspect active or a codex started. And of course pvp'rs have no issue with rolling through those areas and killing new players. However, if you join a guild right away, and one that is willing to throw money at you to help you get aspect cores and codices going, then it is a little more manageable.

I do feel that this statement does have some validity here though: "I have never seen a more anti-social setup than as it is here, where bad behavior is rewarded the way it is here." While I can appreciate that the admins want an environment of "open-world risk", I just don't think that works well when you have so many players. There are just too many players that have long since grown bored of pvm, and delight in attacking other players. There are massive, well-established guilds that dominate all the content as well, and pvp anyone that comes close.

Dungeons have constant waves of reds going through them. Mining spots are frequently patrolled (although these reds are pretty easy to avoid with high tracking). And the ocean is a sea of blood. The admins have tried a few tweaks to try to contain some of the rampant pvp'ing, but ultimately it really hasn't provided much deterrent. The admins frequently remind the disenchanted players like you and I, that this is basically what we signed up for when we decided to create an account here. With Outlands' great events and overall game mechanics, they seem to do a good job of retaining the pro-pvp gankfest players, and there seem to be enough of them, that the admins do not believe there is a pvp issue here.

If it wasn't for the fun guild that I joined, I would have left a long time ago. (I've only been here for about 3 months). However, since I can't go into dungeons or participate in boating without getting killed, I'm basically at a point where I am just showing up to play a bit with my guildmembers, but really the fun of the game is long gone for me because of the out of control pvp here.

The frustration point for me, is that the general game mechanics are awesome. The admins are active and engaged. However I really can't play the game -- at least not to pvm at all.

I really wish they would create a new pvm-focused sever with a bit more relaxed ruleset that would support a consensual pvp ruleset. I don't think there needs to be a full on Trammel server, but just more areas like Corpse Creek where pvp is a consensual experience. I think Outlands is really missing out on attracting and retaining new players to the game, and I know there are many that are looking for more that just a pvp gankfest.

I ask that the admins please seriously consider creating a new server that supports a more relaxed play style. Based on the steady flow of frustrated new and established players here, I feel strongly that there is a demand for this. Many seasoned players (many who pvp) say that the current situation is the worst it has been. I believe this is due to currently having too many players (typically a good problem to have). I suggest running a crowdfunding campaign for launching a new, pvp-relaxed ruleset server. Such a campaign would help to determine interest in such a server, and help support the costs for implementing and running it. I certainly would give a decent chunk of money to help get this off the ground!

I am not a talented writer, so I hope the above is reflective of constructive feedback. The Outlands general game mechanics is the best that is out there, however I would like the option to play Outlands-Lite :)
 
I'm sorry to hear you are leaving as Outlands has been the best gaming experience I've had for a very long time. I am an established player having played for around 5 years (I think) but I do often train new characters from scratch and I don't find it so bad. The experience I've gathered while playing Outlands likely helps, and I understand that it can be hard to adjust coming from more PvE-focused games. I think a lot of the problems you mentioned could be alleviated with a slight shift in your mindset. I don't want to come across as condescending and I know you didn't ask for tips, but I do feel that the sandbox-nature of this brand of UO is something that many people are not used to.

You can alleviate the risk and impact of being PKed by (this is more applicable for dungeons):
- Taking tracking on your builds (as you mentioned)
- Taking resist/wrestling for defense against spells and melee respectively
- Playing a backstabber (not for everyone but you rarely get PKed, especially if you have tracking)
- Using cheap gear. If I get jumped by 6 PKs in a dungeon, I usually know they will be roaming around and rotating through dungeons, so I grab some normal exceptional bone armor, and iron weapons (or something relatively cheap at least) and go and try my luck. If I die again it's not a big deal.

I think one thing people struggle with is they think they have a right to farm un-molested, and that mindset doesn't really work on this type of server. You need to adapt and maybe not use a total glass-cannon PvE build, or insist on using avarite gear at all times. That's how I approach it, and I don't have many issues even when levelling fresh characters without any codex/aspect levels.

I accept that this type of shard is not for everyone, but I am sad to see new players bounce off it. Don't get me wrong, it's certainly more difficult as a new player. Once you have high aspect you will make money fast, and if you die occasionally it won't really set you back as you can make gold that much faster.

The problem with your suggestion of a PvE server, is it would draw many of the PvE players away from the current world, which would then lead to a drought of content for thieves and PKs. I also believe that PvE players would get bored of farming unabated, because despite what many say, the risk is what makes UO so addictive. I think what people want and what they need are two different things. I don't honestly believe that all the PvE players are hooked on UO because of its amazing graphics or UI. If they wanted great PvE content then surely one of the more modern MMOs could provide that in a more appealing format. I think the reason UO persists, and Outlands is so popular, is because nowhere else offers a sandbox environment that really feels like a living world, with decisions and consequences just like real life.
 
In regards to gathering, it's perfectly legal to use a script that recalls you to safety when you detect a red through tracking. When mining I don't take a pack horse as it's too risky. I simply recall home when I am full (around 250 ore). If you take a similar approach with lumberjacking you will greatly reduce your risk. Another good option is to gather near town, and simply run to town. If you have GM wrestling/combat skill and some resist on your gatherer, it's quite hard for PKs to finish you off when you're on the move. Just run and chug heal pots, make sure you have some trapped pouches for escaping paralyze, and have a [pouch macro on a key.

If you are just carrying an iron hatchet, and you drop off at the bank often, then you are not really losing anything by being killed.
 
This advice you are giving has been echoed over and over and over and over and over again. Maybe some take the advice on board, but many just don't. These posts about how Outlands made me sad and I just want to play and I am almost 50 years old and I, for some reason, still have kids at home and I just want to play and be able to leave the screen when my dog has to piss, are simply playing the WRONG game. Their issue stems from the fact that Outlands has a huge population, and they want to play with that population. If they went to another server, more friendly to their lives, would likely mean less people. So instead they try to make Outlands into their game that they seem to want for their own lives.

When people decide to quit Outlands, because it makes them sad, I applaud them for finally having the realization that life is short and they should really focus on things that bring them joy. Good for them! But face it, they want to complain a bit here before leaving because this is like relationships or careers. If your job is pissing you off, people sometimes have optimism that things will get better, or they stay there and bitch about it to every employee that will listen. Why? Because it is alot of work to update your resume, send it out, go to interviews, and just having to start over at a new company. They wonder why the company cannot be a better place for them to work and save them from this hassle.

The complaints about Outlands being what Outlands wants to be, is a strange argument for sure. Loading up a First Person Shooter game because you just want to see other players running around and you just want to test guns by shooting the wall. Then getting pissed off that you were shot by another player because you just want to test guns in peace and not being bothered. Then someone on their forums says, "Here are some tips. Don't stand in one place too long. If you are shot at shoot back. If you see another player character, shoot them before they shoot you". Solid advice, right? Then that angry player responds with "Why should I have to change my play style for that when all I want to do is test guns?" After awhile, it just gets ridiculous.
 
Mental, I'm fairly new as well, maybe three years in now (probably around 48 when I started), and it's true Outlands does not hold your hand as a new player. However, I found it quite rewarding to have to figure things out for myself and bootstrap my toons from nothing to where I am now with a few million gp in the bank and a brand new Galleon -that I built myself!

I have to say that although there are a few sociopaths on the server, that's generally not been my experience with most players, especially reds. More often then not, the reds that have murdered me have not looted my corpse AND get this. If your ghost is visible to them, oftentimes they will rez you. That said, I have run into a few reds who were likely traumatized as children and carry a good bit of anger with them. If you run into those folks it's probably just better to feel bad for them, there's a good chance they're feeling a lot of internal strife.

Also, I didn't find it particularly hard to find people to play with. There are some great guilds out there and the people that I know are pretty dang cool, even the reds.
Before you rage quit, I recommend taking a few days off and rethinking it. I've been a gamer since I've popped out of my mom, it all started with Might and Magic 1. If it weren't for Jon Van Caneghem there is a good chance I would have got laid way more when I was younger. I did UO in 1997 the same time you did, then EQ for several years. I played all of 'em man and without a doubt, aside from the EQ years, this has been the most fulfilling gaming experience I've had.

Give it another try, come find me in game, I'm happy to help out!
 
I have to ask, I have had success mining and lumberjacking, and have been able to bank over 100K boards, are you banking frequently? If so you would not be incurring losses of thousands of boards, you really should not be carrying around this much, this is one of the ways to mitigate risk, mentioned With tracking you can track a red 100 tiles away, that is more than enough time to hide, or recall and bank the boards.