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Societies

Stormay

Apprentice
The talk of the town right now is that societies are going to be changed to some extent, specifically with the artificers enclave. As with all my posts, this will be TLDR, sorry. Right now I am assuming artificers jobs will become less attractive by some means or another, driving people to do more of the jobs from the other societies.

There are a few problems with how societies are now. For one, they are the main gateway to late game character progression, with very little alternative (for gold links, anyway). This may not be a problem itself, but it amplifies the other problems with societies.

There has been pretty hefty inflation of gold since the early days of the server, which is natural, but since skill gain is fairly relaxed, it had the effect of making GM level crafters (not necessarily 120) for alchemy and inscription trivial to make. The hardest part is tracking the timer and marking the runes for every appropriate vendor for the raw resources. It also means completing the weekly societies for these crafters is not as costly as it once was, relatively speaking. This led to people making as many as 3 GM alchy/scribes (1 per account) to complete these societies.

However, I would argue that the ability to throw raw gold to complete these societies isn't the biggest problem. I think the biggest problem with societies is they fundamentally alter game play too much or are just not fun. The goal of societies should be to change game play slightly to make it feel fresh, while providing some sort of benefit. There probably needs to be more ways to reasonably acquire gold links, but that's a different discussion. The problem is society jobs (in some cases) aren't providing neat challenges, they are providing chores. There is a fun aspect missing here, which makes crafter jobs that you can throw gold at to complete all the more attractive.

The Adventurers Lodge

Did I tell you how much I love air drakes?

A good example of societies that are not fun and need improving are the taming society quests. I do not want to tame 1400 air drakes. I don't care what power my character gets for achieving that, I did it once to get to 120 taming, and I think the majority of players don't find that aspect of the game compelling. Instead, some taming societies should be changed to killing X number of creatures (gold value) with a Y pet. For example, tell me I have to farm 50k with an air drake, or farm 75k in with an air drake in Nusero. It changes up my game play to feel fresh, while I am still actively doing something I want to be doing anyway (farming gold).

Some other tamer societies could be taming a creature with an overall positive stat value of 25 in Pulma. Most tamers lore creatures before they kill them just to see if they found some godlike pet (even if its not desirable). Again, this alters game play as I might go out of my way to kill drowned dragons in Pulma instead of demons, looking for a good stat one for the society. I am still doing what I want to be doing (farming gold), but how I do that is changing slightly. Alternatively, a society could be introduced to level two air drakes to level 10. Anything besides telling me to tame 1400 air drakes.

There also needs to be more tamer quests in general. (this will be a common theme)

You could also do something similar with summoners, kill X monsters with an air elemental. Alternatively play around with the circle 5 'summon creature' and form quests from those.

Lockpicking seems pretty straightforward, except if people are going to be driven to be more diverse in the societies they take, then I think lockpicking societies need to have more of the "LP X dungeon level of chests in Y dungeon" as opposed to just "X level of level Y-Z" chests, so that people don't feel forced to pick level 1 chests as a 120 LP in fortune.

Monster Hunter Society

What's a paragon?

The dungeon quests for farming X amount of gold in Y dungeon aren't necessarily the most interesting, but they don't have any major flaws. I think these are fine. Same for the creature type quests.

The jobs to kill specific creatures are good in theory, but in reality I have no interest in killing 74 harpies. There are multiple concerns with these:

A) The kill count is pretty damn high.
B) The entire server gets the same society quests.
C) This server is amazing and popular.
D) Some of the monsters have extremely limited spawns.
E) It seems like it's usually low difficulty mobs that are the targets (I don't have enough data here, feel free to correct me).

For example, one of the societies this week is to kill 74 nightstalkers (the only mob considered mid-range or on a dungeon level 3). I know of a couple spawns for these, and while the competition might not be the worst now, if people are pushed away from the artificer society, competition will jump dramatically. There are multiple ways to combat this, but I think the easiest way is just to expand the number of these quests available (especially at the upper range of monsters) so that potentially not everyone is fighting for the same society. I would also consider reducing the kill counts needed, and maybe forcing societies to generate in a way that guarantees 1 creature per level 3 dungeon per week.

The best solution here would be a way to randomize the societies that are available to any given person, so that they aren't static for the server. This prevents the entire server trying to farm 250k in Nusero. I imagine this would have been done already if it was anywhere approaching easy, so this might be outside of the realm of possibilities for what UO can do.

The biggest problem with this group is the paragon societies.

Paragons are already incredibly valuable, nobody is changing their game play around these societies. You can't do much different to kill a paragon, it's mostly just raw luck. And you do need to be lucky with how rare they are. Unless there is a considerable change to the paragon system, such as having the ability to transform a creature into a paragon after killing X of them or hopefully something more creative, I think these just need to be scrapped entirely. In their place, guarantee a job for mini bosses and bosses. You can also add more quests and options for both the kill monster by type, and kill monster by dungeon jobs.

Potentially change the paragon quests to finding a "quest item" that drops off a certain monster, or in a certain dungeon, and allow it to also spawn in chests. That gives some crossover to LPers as well. Not entirely sure if this is doable, and it's not a unique idea by any stretch, but it's certainly more controllable RNG without damaging/changing the value of paragons.

Tradesman Union and the Order of Armorers

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I don't have much to say about these (thank god, right?). They are pretty straight forward, and provide at least some value to the mid-range resources. Like with the other societies, I think there just needs to be more of these jobs available to provide for some more choice and variance.

I also have no input on the Seafarer society, although looking at it, I imagine it could also use more jobs in general.

There are no quests for harvesting resources. I don't know if this is to combat the incentive to use bots to mine/chop, but maybe consider adding some quests to mine/chop X color resources. The reason is to incentive gathering more mid range resources if the demand for mid range resources is increasing on the other societies (by making more jobs for them)
 
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I don't think it's an Artificer Society Problem. If Artificer Society is nerfed either making it TOO expensive or rewarding LESS points then we will all just move on to the next easiest society and take advantage of that.

I think there are just too many society jobs being completed. Why should we all be allowed to complete 30 Society jobs each week.... heck if you've upgraded, it's what 45? This needs to be brought down to a per IP level (get rid of per account). We all would be much more selective in regards to which society jobs we take.

Additionally, I do think some of the societies need an overhaul..... the only two I can think of off of the top of my head are the Monster Hunter kill quests and the Adventurer Taming ones. I think the idea @Stormay mentioned, randomizing the societies would help immensely. Also, paragon societies are just silly. I also like @Stormay 's idea to the Taming Jobs. Just convert these to kill with X monster, vs. tame X monster.

I guarantee you if I only had 10 jobs each week I would not be loading up Artificer. I would be picking and choosing from ALL societies. And, lol I would buy that perk to increase society jobs. But I think this would need to also be lowered to 1 and 2 jobs for each level.

6M Junk Gold Links anyone?
 

AreYouKidden

Legendary
I love the idea on the taming quests - but then your corralling people into being a tamer even more so - because monster hunter & tamer will synergize so your working two societies at once, and you can only do that as a tamer. I'm not sure what the fix is, but making it so only certain templates can double up is a sure way to make sure everyone uses that template - the activities really do need to be different activities.

I mean honestly - I think the 10 jobs per society should be a max (+ customizations), per IP, and you choose which 30 different jobs your doing a week (if your insane), not which 10 x 3 - would be one of the biggest fixes to stop the spoon feeding from society rewards - granted that spoon feeding comes with a resource sink as well, either gold to buy resources, or sinking ore/lumber resources directly... - and sinks are good for the economy - so it's a very tricky topic to tackle..
 
I mean honestly - I think the 10 jobs per society should be a max (+ customizations), per IP, and you choose which 30 different jobs your doing a week (if your insane), not which 10 x 3 - would be one of the biggest fixes to stop the spoon feeding from society rewards
Don't you think 30 jobs is high though? I mean if this were to happen I would just switch over to smith/tailor and tinker/carpenter on the 3rd account. Now we are in the same boat regarding link printing. Albeit I now have to start keeping a bigger stockpile of resources.
 

Stormay

Apprentice
I am not opposed to 10 jobs per week per IP. That would basically make anything but the jobs that don't reward the most points pretty obsolete (at least if you are setup and have the means). On the fence on whether or not that is actually bad or not.

I do agree tamers would be able to double up on societies sometimes (unless they were randomized in place of adding more to the selection). In which case, it would not be super common to get overlapping jobs. That is why I included the ones for summoner.

I can't think of anything not super lame for bard or dexxer. I'm not super concerned about the doubling up, especially if they are randomized per person, in place of just adding more jobs. You are already using a new pet to do the killing, and likely a pet that ranges from terrible to decent. I think the benefits from double dipping on societies when those line up is pretty marginal.
 
I see what your saying.... every time I think of something for a bard or dexer it turns into a Kill Quest. Which if I think further about it, the taming quests have also turned into, Kill X monster with X tame. Dexer would be Kill X monster in X stance, or using X codex, or under the influence of camping buff, discordance buff, while tracking, etc...

I tried to think a bit about what Adventurer could be that doesn't revolve around killing and includes all classes. Tough... Best I could come up with was the old NPC traveling quests. Take them here or there. Take an NPC to retrieve their lost sword in bottom level of X dungeon. This would be PvM and PvP all wrapped up in one society. You could make the NPCs weaker or stronger depending on how many points the job may be worth????? Not sure.
 
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BirdxMan

Neophyte
As a new player, the artificer seems like the only way to really get a good start on the shard and not spend 40 hours a week grinding - and for late-game, if it goes away it will be impossible to catch up with established players. Over the past 2 months i've built my alchy/scribes up expecting they will be nerfed, just hitting GM+ this past week.. With the hope it's not going to be a completely unfair change to those who have started recently. Nerfing it down to 1/3rd of what the rewards have been won't be very fair.

To build a good capable skill orb/scrolled/aspected pvm character costs your first link, to buy a house costs another link, unlocking additional jobs costs the 3rd... and then getting into the endgame of actually using bronze/silver links yourself costs a few more.. Without the artificers jobs, I doubt i'd be able to have accumulate more then 100 points in any other society at this point, and i'm at about 350/230/120 with all my savings going into those society points for the eventual return on investment.

I feel like the reforging and recycling portions of links will need an overhaul especially for bronze and silver - right now my plan is to trade two or 3 artificer gold links for a set of the bronze links I will need, there's really no other feasible way to get the ~7.5m needed for a bronze set.. or the ~25m needed for a silver set -- if the system gets reduced down to 1/3rd of what it has been that'll be good enough reason to quit altogether.. Changing the system that much/making gold links become that much harder to get, their value will increase by the amount of the new difficulty to obtain them.. locking people out who didn't print them the past 2 years.

They should keep the system how it is and make a new mechanic/overhaul the system for obtaining platinum links.
 
I don't know man, established players will always have an advantage over newer players. In every MMO this has always been the case. I really dislike the statement, "Don't nerf X because all the established players already benefited from X and it won't be fair to newer players." Everyone will receive the nerf.

There is a list a mile long with what players who have been around since the birth of the server have benefited from. Choice of House Placement, Farming Dungeons before they became crowded, farming mobs that had a disproportionate amount of loot/gold, etc... What's good for the server always outweighs what is fair to a certain player base's bank account.

Besides, your talking gold links. The difference between bronze and gold is not hugely significant. By the time you unlock a few slots you will have already farmed enough gold (not even including drops, gold only) to outright buy those links.
 
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AreYouKidden

Legendary
As a new player, the artificer seems like the only way to really get a good start on the shard and not spend 40 hours a week grinding - and for late-game, if it goes away it will be impossible to catch up with established players. Over the past 2 months i've built my alchy/scribes up expecting they will be nerfed, just hitting GM+ this past week.. With the hope it's not going to be a completely unfair change to those who have started recently. Nerfing it down to 1/3rd of what the rewards have been won't be very fair.
This statement is every reason that it needs to be fixed in my eyes.. You shouldn't be forced into building 3x the same character template, to game the system for the best rewards, that's a flaw in the system, and the sooner it's fixed the better for future generations - in truth it should have been fixed a year ago - but they only have limited dev time, and have to prioritize, and also decide the right way forward.

Many of us, while we've been here for two years, didn't actually game the system, played it the way we felt the dev's meant it to be played, dabbling in all (even the less efficient) societies, not finding the quickest way to riches. I only have 1 scribe, and 1 alchemist - even though it's clearly the easiest way for riches.

In touching on someone else's comment on nerfing the 30 jobs. I do, 20-30 jobs a week, across 5 societies - I let it drive almost all of my gameplay - and if we did nerf it down to 10 jobs a week, that'd be an unfortunate blow, because like many people - I let the societies guide my gameplay - as the society wills it. Adventurer's Lodge, MH & Seafarers in my eyes are examples of great societies, because yes they take time to do them each week, but ultimately they can help lead your gameplay, and drive you into interacting with others (for good or for worse). The crafting societies on the other hand - are the biggest farces (especially artificer), because you literally finish them 30 min into the week.

Artificer vs Tradesman/Armorer: Artificer has unlimited resources, bought from NPC vendors - and that's why it's probably the worst society of them all - having everyone do it, actually causes the entire keg market, and economy to be upside down - virtually everyone has an alchemist/scribe, and feels they have to "to compete / get gold links), really reduces a scribe & alchemists opportunities to make sales.. Tradesman/Armorer - at least requires a player gathered resource, which keeps the gathering economy stable, and profitable for newer players - I do worry that limiting the latter two jobs, could reduce the sink for ore/lumber/leather, and shift that economy slightly - but I still think it's something that needs doing. I don't know of a way to make the crafting societies better/more meaningful though :(
 

Basia

Master
Societies are one of the main drivers of activity on this shard.... decreasing the number of jobs is not a good solution.

The real issue here, imo, is that there's no incentive to choose the more active jobs (those involving risk, interaction and actual gameplay out in the world) over the crafting jobs you can macro from the safety of your home.

Look at this week's Monster Hunter Society for example. A whopping 9 out of 16 jobs are paragon jobs that almost no one will complete. Then there's 74 nightstalkers, a 6+ hour job because there's only one nightstalker on the map. Players look at this and think why waste my time when I can get easy points crafting? I'm one of the top monster hunters and even I have started picking more crafting jobs instead.

Paragon jobs and 250k farm jobs should probably be like the paragon chest and research mat jobs -- one per week. Replace them with a greater variety of 25k and 100k jobs that more people can realistically do. I say keep the system the way it is but make the point values more enticing for the more active jobs, and reduce points for the crafting jobs. They are good gold and resource sinks, though, so they do offer some value to the economy. And it's the only reliable way to get links. You can do 50+ lore bosses and not get a single gold link.
 
Societies are one of the main drivers of activity on this shard.... decreasing the number of jobs is not a good solution.
I disagree. Aside from the silly paragon society quests (not even talking about those), I don't know many people that can get through more than 10 active society jobs in a week. I'd love to hear everyone's feedback on this, but I do think 10 society jobs is plenty to keep someone busy for the entire week.
 

AreYouKidden

Legendary
I disagree. Aside from the silly paragon society quests (not even talking about those), I don't know many people that can get through more than 10 active society jobs in a week. I'd love to hear everyone's feedback on this, but I do think 10 society jobs is plenty to keep someone busy for the entire week.
I'm not sure what you mean by 10 active society jobs - in my eyes, that's the non crafting jobs.

My regular weeks here - I do 20-30 (usually the 25 range) society jobs a week, playing about 1-2 hours, 5-6 days a week.. They are heavily weighted in the Armorer, Artificer and Tradesman societies - I take about 4-6 in each because they can be knocked out the fastest - and coincide with my various crafters - but I don't double up on any of the societies - because I feel like that's an abuse of how they were designed (ie. have 3 accounts all do the same 5 jobs on the artificers). Adventurers Lodge & Monsters Hunter are my two time consuming societies, and I do about 5-10 jobs a week, depending on if I'm up to the picking / farming, or if I just fizzle out due to bad runs and limited time.
 
I'm not sure what you mean by 10 active society jobs - in my eyes, that's the non crafting jobs.

My regular weeks here - I do 20-30 (usually the 25 range) society jobs a week, playing about 1-2 hours, 5-6 days a week.. They are heavily weighted in the Armorer, Artificer and Tradesman societies - I take about 4-6 in each because they can be knocked out the fastest - and coincide with my various crafters - but I don't double up on any of the societies - because I feel like that's an abuse of how they were designed (ie. have 3 accounts all do the same 5 jobs on the artificers). Adventurers Lodge & Monsters Hunter are my two time consuming societies, and I do about 5-10 jobs a week, depending on if I'm up to the picking / farming, or if I just fizzle out due to bad runs and limited time.
Active society jobs was probably a bad description. I meant non-crafter society jobs. By saying active society jobs, I meant monster hunter or adventurer ones that require a lot of playtime and going out in the world.

The whole point of my post is that 10 of those (active, non-crafter society jobs) is MORE than enough for most people to keep you busy in a week and guide gameplay (if you desire that). I just think 30 society jobs is far too many. If we left crafter jobs as-is but limited society jobs to 10 per IP then those that have no interest in burning the gold/resources to do crafting jobs can do the non-crafter ones. But those that have no interest in venturing out in the world can consume resources/gold to do the crafter ones.

All in all, I just think there is no need for all of us to complete 30 jobs/week. This is roughly 200 society points a week or a 1/3 gold link which is just too much, in my opinion. Now I know there are some people who won't game this system to maximize return, but a majority are.
 

AreYouKidden

Legendary
Active society jobs was probably a bad description. I meant non-crafter society jobs. By saying active society jobs, I meant monster hunter or adventurer ones that require a lot of playtime and going out in the world.

The whole point of my post is that 10 of those (active, non-crafter society jobs) is MORE than enough for most people to keep you busy in a week and guide gameplay (if you desire that). I just think 30 society jobs is far too many. If we left crafter jobs as-is but limited society jobs to 10 per IP then those that have no interest in burning the gold/resources to do crafting jobs can do the non-crafter ones. But those that have no interest in venturing out in the world can consume resources/gold to do the crafter ones.

All in all, I just think there is no need for all of us to complete 30 jobs/week. This is roughly 200 society points a week or a 1/3 gold link which is just too much, in my opinion. Now I know there are some people who won't game this system to maximize return, but a majority are.
There are many people I know who do 10 monster hunter jobs a week, and if you add in pickers/seafaring - I dunno, 10 just seems like too few.. Maybe the solution is 10 crafter (armorer, tradesman, artificer), and 10 active (monster hunter, adventurers, seafarers) - allowing you to increase active up to 15 per week (but not crafting).

I do know if I had more active time to play, 20-30 hours a week - and my societies only took 10 hours, I'd like fizzle out, and go do something else, so I don't believe limiting players to what casuals can achieve is really the way - they should be reach goals, only 10-15% should be able to accomplish them all each week, with the rest, always striving to do more..

This is also a bandaid to the issue - the active societies do need an overhaul on what's worthwhile, because many of the tasks being impossible for 4-5 points and having soo many impossible paragon tasks really makes it hard to achieve much with the MH at least - I know with adventurer's lodge it suffers the same impossibilities with the 150-200 level 5+ chests, or the 10-12 level 7-8's chests especially - you have to sink hours and hours and may still not get there because competition eliminates your ability to do them entirely. Seafarers I haven't done but I'm sure there's many people just don't do because they aren't worth it.

In terms of crafting - i personally think the fact you get to keep and sell the items you make, causes part of the issue, if it was a pure sink for points - less people would be doing it just for the points, and less would be going on to people's shelves, causing them to either have to craft for themselves or buy from crafters.. Right now it tell's me to make 150 exceptional leather leggings and that's 150 items I'll never need to buy from someone else.. I've got over 1500 of each leather piece on my shelf, all from societies..
 
In terms of crafting - i personally think the fact you get to keep and sell the items you make, causes part of the issue, if it was a pure sink for points - less people would be doing it just for the points, and less would be going on to people's shelves, causing them to either have to craft for themselves or buy from crafters.. Right now it tell's me to make 150 exceptional leather leggings and that's 150 items I'll never need to buy from someone else.. I've got over 1500 of each leather piece on my shelf, all from societies..
This is a real good point too.

But, do you really think just because societies are done people won't play? I'm in the 3x artificer group (and not particularly proud of that fact) but, my society jobs have nothing to do with whether or not I play this game. I play regardless if I'm working toward a society job or not. I could be in the minority here, but I am curious to know how many people are driven to play ONLY based off of whether or not they are progressing a society.
 

AreYouKidden

Legendary
This is a real good point too.

But, do you really think just because societies are done people won't play? I'm in the 3x artificer group (and not particularly proud of that fact) but, my society jobs have nothing to do with whether or not I play this game. I play regardless if I'm working toward a society job or not. I could be in the minority here, but I am curious to know how many people are driven to play ONLY based off of whether or not they are progressing a society.
I don't think people will quit playing, they'll alter their activities - but that can also have an adverse effect, one of the things you need to remember, the societies drive people into the same areas of the game, which creates an atmosphere of activity, a place that thieves & PK's can target for their fun, and others can target for interactions in an MMO. It creates a competition, which inevitably slows farming rates down, which is also better for the economy. If you remove a portion of that, you end up with far more deadspots as people find the 1 spot they are comfortable farming and never leave. While some people will enjoy that, many others will get bored, and move along as well..

Of course focusing people to one activity, also causes some frustration which leads to kneejerk reactions/suggestions sometimes also..

I think mostly I'm just trying to say, it's not a simple fix, I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with - I just don't know that cutting down the active elements will have the right effects.
 
What's the problem with "link printing"?
The only methods of obtaining links are omnis, lore/t8, or societies. The first two require being in a guild or large group to complete, and even then the drop rate for good links is low. That leaves societies as the single method for smaller guild or solo players to obtain them lest they buy on the open market.

Even after all this, a trash gold link still costs 2.2-2.5m. I'd say the supply of gold links entering the market is fine. I don't necessarily see a problem with high-powered players who spend 12 hours/day playing this game getting a chain full of gold links. If they want to burn that much of their life grinding they can have it.

On top of this, nerfing artificers could be a big hit to what I presume is the largest gold sink on the shard. Inflation is one of the biggest threats to any UO shard long term, as it will eventually lock out newer/mid tier players from buying basic necessities.
 

AreYouKidden

Legendary
What's the problem with "link printing"?
The only methods of obtaining links are omnis, lore/t8, or societies. The first two require being in a guild or large group to complete, and even then the drop rate for good links is low. That leaves societies as the single method for smaller guild or solo players to obtain them lest they buy on the open market.

Even after all this, a trash gold link still costs 2.2-2.5m. I'd say the supply of gold links entering the market is fine. I don't necessarily see a problem with high-powered players who spend 12 hours/day playing this game getting a chain full of gold links. If they want to burn that much of their life grinding they can have it.

On top of this, nerfing artificers could be a big hit to what I presume is the largest gold sink on the shard. Inflation is one of the biggest threats to any UO shard long term, as it will eventually lock out newer/mid tier players from buying basic necessities.
The biggest concern is power creep - all those gold links, can flush more gold into the economy faster, thus un-stabilizing it as well - all valid concerns.
 

Basia

Master
The biggest concern is power creep - all those gold links, can flush more gold into the economy faster, thus un-stabilizing it as well - all valid concerns.
If gold links were to become more difficult to obtain and were basically gated behind access to large guilds, it would just drive their price up and then even more gold would be flushed into the economy.

As for "power creep," it's kinda hard to take those concerns seriously when noob dexxers with a few bronzes can out-dps tamers with 15+ gold links. :p I agree with Technicals, if people want to fill their chains with gold and they're willing to put in that work they should be able to.
 
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As for "power creep," it's kinda hard to take those concerns seriously when noob dexxers with a few bronzes can out-dps tamers with 15+ gold links. :p I agree with Technicals, if people want to fill their chains with gold and they're willing to put in that work they should be able to.
Power creep has nothing to do with dexers doing more DPS than tamers.

Dexers should do more DPS as they are taking the most damage face tanking mobs (More Risk = More Rewards, Less Risk = Less Rewards). I like the direction they are headed in, if your HP is on the line every fight you should do more DPS. Now, power creep (applied to everyone) is a concern, but toning aspect chance down as they did in the last patch has been a move in the right direction.
 
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