To the people saying nerf tamers..
- Thread starter Dallaswolf
- Start date
Currently tamers are #1 in PvM by a huge margin --AND-- are very capable in PvP.
Should the hardest to gain & most expensive build have an advantage?
Yes.
Should it have a 3-4x advantage in PvM DPS over most other builds?
No.
Should Tamers gain their Mastery Chain at 3-4x over most other builds because of that same advantage?
No.
Should that same PvM Tamer build be able to go toe-to-toe against a typical PvP build and win regularly / easily?
No.
Should a stealth PK Tamer build be able to easily one-two shot dunk a player in ~2 seconds?
No.
Should there be more countermeasures against PK Tamers other than peacemaking?
Yes.
Should the hardest to gain & most expensive build have an advantage?
Yes.
Should it have a 3-4x advantage in PvM DPS over most other builds?
No.
Should Tamers gain their Mastery Chain at 3-4x over most other builds because of that same advantage?
No.
Should that same PvM Tamer build be able to go toe-to-toe against a typical PvP build and win regularly / easily?
No.
Should a stealth PK Tamer build be able to easily one-two shot dunk a player in ~2 seconds?
No.
Should there be more countermeasures against PK Tamers other than peacemaking?
Yes.
Just wait until you hit those stretches where it takes 5 hours to gain .1! It's great fun. And then you get to listen to people, including staff, claim that making a tamer on Outlands is "easier" than on any other shard (it's not).
Then you get to spend something like 12 million on 120 taming and aspect, only to get nerfed over and over... and STILL have to listen to crybabies whine about how you're "OP."
They don't even need to run, pks and thieves can literally walk away on foot from most pets. Only a select few pets have any use in pvp.
Because entitled millennial snowflakes think that a mage or dexxer they spent 3 days making (afk and practically for free) should be as strong as a tamer, if not stronger, in all situations and for all types of content.
Because they will whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine until they get their way.
Then you get to spend something like 12 million on 120 taming and aspect, only to get nerfed over and over... and STILL have to listen to crybabies whine about how you're "OP."
They don't even need to run, pks and thieves can literally walk away on foot from most pets. Only a select few pets have any use in pvp.
Because entitled millennial snowflakes think that a mage or dexxer they spent 3 days making (afk and practically for free) should be as strong as a tamer, if not stronger, in all situations and for all types of content.
Because they will whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine until they get their way.
It makes me sad that tamers/every other skillsets get beat to the ground on most shard to propagate the mage epidemic. I couldn't pretend to understand how difficult it is to balance games when custom mechanics are put in place, but repeated nerfs to specific skill sets aren't the way to go :-/
At the end of the day, we will all be mages trying to shoot fireballs up each other's asses.
At the end of the day, we will all be mages trying to shoot fireballs up each other's asses.
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Wow, this is pretty shocking as my post was totally not designed to piss off the whiners. 
Right. You know what, maybe there should be no connection between work and reward at all. Let's make it so that time, money and effort actually make your character weaker! Finally, the Oreochimarus of the world will be in their rightful place at the top! Who wouldn't want to play a game like that??
Right. You know what, maybe there should be no connection between work and reward at all. Let's make it so that time, money and effort actually make your character weaker! Finally, the Oreochimarus of the world will be in their rightful place at the top! Who wouldn't want to play a game like that??
Wow, this is pretty shocking as my post was totally not designed to piss off the whiners.
There is a connection between work and reward. It's called a competitive build. You've failed to make the case that your build isn't overpowered. In fact, all it appears for you to be arguing is that you should be allowed to keep an OP build because you suffered in the finding of it. I suppose you can complain that it's "unfair" that you're being "punished" for finding an OP build, but it's not very convincing. Sounds like you want special privileges. I don't think it would necessarily be out of line for you to be compensated with extra gold for your efforts, but it probably wouldn't be a good precedent either. Given the manner in which you lodged your protest, I can see why no one else has come to your defense.
Sorry? Who proposed that? Strawman argument.
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Yeah, a build that pks can literally walk away from is totally "OP." I have a tamer, a summoner and a dexxer, all in aspect. Each has its relative strengths in certain situations but overall they're roughly equal. I can actually farm a bit faster on the summoner and dexxer and they're more survivable as well.
Nerfing things after people have spent ridiculous amounts of time and money on them, just to pacify some whiners who will never be happy anyway, is more than just unfair. It's poor design and shows disregard for the players. If it was actually warranted I could live with it, but it's not.
I have a tamer, a summoner and a dexxer, all in aspect. Each has its relative strengths in certain situations but overall they're roughly equal. I can actually farm a bit faster on the summoner and dexxer and they're more survivable as well.Nerfing things after people have spent ridiculous amounts of time and money on them, just to pacify some whiners who will never be happy anyway, is more than just unfair. It's poor design and shows disregard for the players. If it was actually warranted I could live with it, but it's not.
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I haven't seen any PvM nerf in this latest patch? Tamers are pretty funny; I walk into a dungeon and everything is dead — it looks like WWIII just hit, and I know there's a tamer somewhere.
The thing is: over the past 4 weeks I would say maybe 70% of players I see farming level 3 are tamers. Gradually everyone sees how powerful they are at PvM and drifts towards building one. It's a difficult thing to balance... I'm aware they take a whole load of gruelling work to level, and you have all the effort a massive amount of players have put into them; I'm not sure what the solution is.
As the server ages, and people have more and more time to invest into their characters and accounts; gradually people will aim to have a PvM tamer just because of how efficient they are. Here's an example: at Lyric 9 (and it it will be the same at 12 with gold mastery links, the power spike just isn't that much), let's say I walk into the end room of Ossuary; the Lich Magus, Phoenix, and all the other human mobs are up. I better be damn careful how I clear the room. It'll take time, and on my farming routes I often skip mobs I don't find efficient enough.
Whereas I see 120 Tamers just rolling through dungeons and obliterating everything. They have higher GPM, more chance at specials, and don't even seem to really do anything (I could be wrong here!)
Then let's say that I play Outlands for 6 months, a year, more! By then I've decided to try out tamer for its farming speed, and guess what; so has everyone else. Every dungeon becomes a stomping ground of 120 tamers trying to find farm. That could be pretty sad?
The thing is: over the past 4 weeks I would say maybe 70% of players I see farming level 3 are tamers. Gradually everyone sees how powerful they are at PvM and drifts towards building one. It's a difficult thing to balance... I'm aware they take a whole load of gruelling work to level, and you have all the effort a massive amount of players have put into them; I'm not sure what the solution is.
As the server ages, and people have more and more time to invest into their characters and accounts; gradually people will aim to have a PvM tamer just because of how efficient they are. Here's an example: at Lyric 9 (and it it will be the same at 12 with gold mastery links, the power spike just isn't that much), let's say I walk into the end room of Ossuary; the Lich Magus, Phoenix, and all the other human mobs are up. I better be damn careful how I clear the room. It'll take time, and on my farming routes I often skip mobs I don't find efficient enough.
Whereas I see 120 Tamers just rolling through dungeons and obliterating everything. They have higher GPM, more chance at specials, and don't even seem to really do anything (I could be wrong here!)
Then let's say that I play Outlands for 6 months, a year, more! By then I've decided to try out tamer for its farming speed, and guess what; so has everyone else. Every dungeon becomes a stomping ground of 120 tamers trying to find farm. That could be pretty sad?
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I think one of my favorite things on this shard is seeing a variety of templates out there - but we all know the templates aren't balanced, and the fear is real that one day it'll be a majority tamer driven shard, and the justification? They take soo long too level!
Here's a thought, make tamers 50% effective, and take 1/3 the time to level? Problem solved right?
Nerf's are never fun, and OP templates are not balanced - the real solution is bring other templates up to the tamers level, get a nice balance/variety, and add harder content, more density in mobs, make them leash together so you can't just pull 1 or 2 mobs at a time, that way it doesn't just look like WWIII as Levity puts it.
Here's a thought, make tamers 50% effective, and take 1/3 the time to level? Problem solved right?
Nerf's are never fun, and OP templates are not balanced - the real solution is bring other templates up to the tamers level, get a nice balance/variety, and add harder content, more density in mobs, make them leash together so you can't just pull 1 or 2 mobs at a time, that way it doesn't just look like WWIII as Levity puts it.
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I went through the PvE progression here and don't see a problem with it. Went Peace dexer ^ Shadow backstabber ^ Water Tamer ^ Command Tamer. Honestly, my shadow backstabber makes more GPH than my tamer IF I have the right spots available. The advantage the tamer has is being able to clearcut mobs anywhere.
Perhaps an idea is for places liike the new OSS-4 they can add mobs that have special attacks that target pets and makes them harder to use which would push people to use dexers to tank.
Perhaps an idea is for places liike the new OSS-4 they can add mobs that have special attacks that target pets and makes them harder to use which would push people to use dexers to tank.
" the real solution is bring other templates up to the tamers level, get a nice balance/variety, and add harder content, more density in mobs, make them leash together so you can't just pull 1 or 2 mobs at a time..."
I like the sound of this approach, though of course that is going to be far easier said than done. Harder dungeons would be amazing, or at least a tier of dungeons with better loot that encourages/requires grouping. As it stands, once you have enough aspect most places become pretty darn easy and you are left focusing on efficiency and keeping an eye for reds.
"Perhaps an idea is for places liike the new OSS-4 they can add mobs that have special attacks that target pets and makes them harder to use which would push people to use dexers to tank. " This is cool too. I always think it's a neat idea to have clear roles for the various classes.
I like the sound of this approach, though of course that is going to be far easier said than done. Harder dungeons would be amazing, or at least a tier of dungeons with better loot that encourages/requires grouping. As it stands, once you have enough aspect most places become pretty darn easy and you are left focusing on efficiency and keeping an eye for reds.
"Perhaps an idea is for places liike the new OSS-4 they can add mobs that have special attacks that target pets and makes them harder to use which would push people to use dexers to tank. " This is cool too. I always think it's a neat idea to have clear roles for the various classes.
Please tell me this is a joke. We're nearly a year past launch now, people have already sunk more money into their tamers than the cost of the most expensive houses on the shard and you seriously think making them HALF AS EFFECTIVE would be okay? All because it makes some people a little sad to see tamers in a dungeon instead of bards or whatever it is you want to see?