Housing Discussion

[TheTechnicals]

It is no decision to upgrade a house because it is bigger, more desirable, more secures, more fun. Who wants trailer park world. Fun things in games are good.

Things that are unfun and push players away generally are bad ideas. On top of bringing real world bad feels into a game.

It also punishes ALL players and not just those refreshing. Which is a larger negative force to almost the whole playerbase, when simply lowering idoc timer just gets the those hanging on by a thread.

The devs clearly enjoy the subsection of gameplay that is grindy. An expensive housing market is a good thing for them. Incentivises repeat play. The carrot on the stick is even more rewarding when achieved. More people do more aspect and such to farm for the house. More aspect, more effort, more time = a retained player. People who complain about current housing prices are either.

1. Calling out blatant overcharging. Some seem to confuse the corner case of a house ask of triple market as "the housing market" when there are well priced houses for the level of gold on the shard, every single day.
2. Players white knighting for noobs for some reason, because they bought a small two years ago for 500k and dont factor in changes to farm economy over that time.
3. Rare new player complaining who wouldnt play long if housing was instanced and free anyway. Again, carrot on a stick.

No offense, but this is a dead horse and clearly not happening. For good reason. The housing economy is actually very well balanced to the farm here and I think theyve done a great job.

Fine line between creating a grindy gameplay, and creating an environment where new players can't possibly hope to own a house for over a year or via blind lucky drop of iris shoes. I agree with you that people should have goals to aspire towards, but you're ignoring the other, arguably more important reason for implementation of a tax system, which is rampant inflation.

Low inventory certain contributes to the housing prices, but the fact that people are ABLE to cough up 100's of millions in gold for premium real estate suggests that inflation is exploding and the systems in place to sink gold are simply insufficient. Gold reforge tools and lottery tickets just aren't cutting it.

Really seems to be the only way to have a progressively scaled gold sink that affects large gold hoarders more than others.

It's still beyond me how anyone with a house worth 1m+ can't be bothered to generate 20k or so per week to keep it alive. Do you end-gamers just sit around and deco all day?

 

[AreYouKidden]

It's still beyond me how anyone with a house worth 1m+ can't be bothered to generate 20k or so per week to keep it alive. Do you end-gamers just sit around and deco all day?

Yes.. or they burnt out "earning" their over priced home, and it's in refresh mode every 28 days.. But it's their right?

To All:
Honestly housing situations, and people fit in all sorts of categories - there are people who stay in smaller homes because they don't want to over-indulge, others who go huge, because it's just their thing, and there are guilds in big homes. It's a sandbox, the mechanics are there, no reason not to play it how you want. But that's sort of the issue, the mechanics are wrong in my mind - they should be built to promote active players in houses, to keep the overworld an active, happening place - and to require more effort to those over indulging and eating up housing space. A 30x30 blocks 8 other people from owning a home, multiple homes also do the same, and inactive houses just leave a dull and boring landscape - it's always exciting seeing people even if they are just idling - it's better for the long term health of the shard.

I'm a huge fan of Upkeep & Taxation. It promotes activity through having to keep supplying your home house from falling into a state of decay or IDOC (more involved than just logging in) which puts homes back into the active market quicker and promotes living in your means by taxing those who have multiple properties.

Reality though - staff have said there are no reliable ways for account groups, and IP tracking to work. So the limit of 1 house per IP, will never be a thing, nor will taxation for multiple homes - so really all solutions need to be focused on the over indulgence on the single home, and keeping housing in active players hands.

 

[Laughing Skull]

Reality though - staff have said there are no reliable ways for account groups, and IP tracking to work. So the limit of 1 house per IP, will never be a thing, nor will taxation for multiple homes - so really all solutions need to be focused on the over indulgence on the single home, and keeping housing in active players hands.

One thing I always wondered is why did they stop there? I mean why limit it to 1 per account? What is the difference? I'm not asking to be an ass. Just curious, I have no understanding of how things work on the back end. Couldn't that same argument be applied to reasons why we shouldn't limit houses to 1 per account?

 

[Lemora]

Fine line between creating a grindy gameplay, and creating an environment where new players can't possibly hope to own a house for over a year or via blind lucky drop of iris shoes. I agree with you that people should have goals to aspire towards, but you're ignoring the other, arguably more important reason for implementation of a tax system, which is rampant inflation.

Low inventory certain contributes to the housing prices, but the fact that people are ABLE to cough up 100's of millions in gold for premium real estate suggests that inflation is exploding and the systems in place to sink gold are simply insufficient. Gold reforge tools and lottery tickets just aren't cutting it.

Really seems to be the only way to have a progressively scaled gold sink that affects large gold hoarders more than others.

It's still beyond me how anyone with a house worth 1m+ can't be bothered to generate 20k or so per week to keep it alive. Do you end-gamers just sit around and deco all day?

You think it takes a year to farm 1m gold on this server? What?

There are houses for sale every day on the vendor....

I had one specific model house I wanted. It was many multiple millions and took me about three weeks to save and when I did I had 4 to pick from in 3 days.

A lot of bleeding hearts for some reason when it comes to housing over a problem that doesnt exist. If I say any more Im just repeating my previous posts.

PS they are making new gold sinks all the time. See these new horses etc. They cut down on gold released from farming a bit. Its not that players cant pay upkeep on their houses its that its a terribly unfun idea and why Owyn said it wouldnt happen.

 

[Laughing Skull]

You think it takes a year to farm 1m gold on this server? What?

There are houses for sale every day on the vendor....

I had one specific model house I wanted. It was many multiple millions and took me about three weeks to save and when I did I had 4 to pick from in 3 days.

A lot of bleeding hearts for some reason when it comes to housing over a problem that doesnt exist. If I say any more Im just repeating my previous posts.

PS they are making new gold sinks all the time. See these new horses etc. They cut down on gold released from farming a bit. Its not that players cant pay upkeep on their houses its that its a terribly unfun idea and why Owyn said it wouldnt happen.

I mean I can see both points of view here and I think it is a matter of perspective. If you think (placed) player housing should be available to newer players, then prices are beginning to become unreasonable. If you think player housing is end game, then the sky's the limit.

I guess my view is beginning to shift on this topic. Why should newer players have access to housing from the get go? The Inn system is a perfect solution until you can save for a placed house. The only argument I have seen in support of newer players having access to placed housing is for the enjoyment factor and player retention. Unfortunately, I don't think this is sustainable. Everyone can't have a house. The land mass just does not support it - and it never will.

I guess placed housing is just gravitating to an end game thing. Let the market be free and do what it does. If an 8x8 ends up selling for 5 million - who is to say that price is incorrect? I've seen gate houses sell for crazy amounts, this is due to their rarity. Maybe we have to come to the realization that housing may move into more of a end game, rare item purchase.

People that got here first obviously scored big, but that is just the way it works. People that got here first got to farm things for crazy XP amounts, people that got here first got to have access to some rare items that aren't around any more, people that go there first got to place moongate houses, people that got here first got to keep their society items for a long time, people that got here first got to build up their resource supply with recall farming, etc....

 

[AreYouKidden]

The people who got here first, also didn't get to sell aspect items for 20-50k ea, maps for 5k a level, or clothing drops for millions... Couldn't buy up anything on a whim, because they felt like being a blood aspect warrior instead of what they had... or buy a full spell book off a vendor..

Two very different worlds - both eras have their pros and cons - but they just are what they are - no point in lamenting what was, just look forward to what is..

 

[Laughing Skull]

Right, that was the whole point of my post. Things are different now and so is the housing market. Starting early you could get in for relatively cheap. Now it's turned into more of a rare-type, end game market. And the Inn System looks like it is a good middle ground.

 

[HeliumFreak]

My issue is i run across the landscape on a regular basis and i see many houses with literally nothing in them, totally empty, not for sale and "Like New". So whoever owns it has no interest in using it, or selling it they just want to horde it. Also i see many houses with over 2 weeks + of no refresh. I work away from home and i do so for 4 weeks at a time 80 hours a week no days off. Even i could find 2 minutes in a week to refresh a house.

IDOC timer should be reduced to 2 weeks.

 

[Wuffa]

Even i could find 2 minutes in a week to refresh a house.

IDOC timer should be reduced to 2 weeks.

If you don't need to why would you?

Change the idoc timer and people would just refresh more often, that's not a solution just adding additional annoyances to people.

 

[HeliumFreak]

On the flip side if you make it more annoying for people who clearly arent playing then maybe they will give their house to a friend who is playing, or sell it or let it drop.

 

[getofftheshed]

solution is simple. Wipe shard at end of the year, make it a big event.

Come back correct this time. 1 account per IP. 1 house per MAH. No multi-boxing in dungeons from launch this time.


Do that and damn, outlands would be UO again because there is nothing "UO" about having 3 accounts, multiboxxing dungeons(which you could do at outlands launch), and having 15 characters.

 

[Chesapeake1998]

Hello - I thought I would comment on this. I played UO back in 1998 Chesapeake for many years. Housing was NEVER meant to be easy and never was. Much like the real world, housing is often difficult for many people. It should be that way. I never post on forums, but I thought I should on this specific topic.

I recently started playing Outlands because It promised a real experience with thriving community - so far it has delivered in SPADES. I am new player with a few months of playing. The PVP side is excellent balance with the PVM side. It is literally amazing. You will be PKed from time to time - that’s the name of the game. Through discord you can get some blue folks to come help in defense. Great balance - nothing needed here.

On housing - taxing players with real estate is a horrible idea. It would make it a chore and ’not fun’ for many players. While there are very expensive houses on the server - there are many options in the 1-2m range for 8x8. That may sound like a lot... but it’s really not With some time and effort playing. Again, as it should be. With some time... and effort... and luck... you’ll get some nice drops that add up in $$. I was able to purchase a 8x8 in that price range above and then, I demolished it and placed a larger tower on the same space. It also forces players to work together... perhaps you can incentivize very wealthy players to help younger players with gold so that they can purchase their first home. At the end of the day, it should be a mechanic that allows players to drive... not big brother making it unfun for those that have worked hard to earn their homes. Why not incentivize some house sellers to drop their price for another form of consideration. So... for example. If you sell your house at a discount to another player for a 10-15% tax on the buying players loot going forward On the account? Or I’m willing to sell my home for a discounted price for a “rare“ like item that is granted by game. So... any 8x8 house sold below 1mm will also automatically receive a special rare, ability, etc. This way, you incentivize a seller to drop the price without penalizing him per se. Now you have other incentives for players to reduce housing prices they are wiling to take because they will get something else in return. Of course - nothing that changes in-game mechanics. Special mounts? 1-2% more loot for 6 months in dungeons?

For example: I want to sell an 8x8 prime real estate for $3 Million. I can also sell it for $999k... my reward for selling it at a discount price will be a special mount and 20-30% more gold from monsters for 6 months Or 1 year. Just some thoughts. I think you need to think through how this would impact the broader game, but I think the idea is you need to incentivize lower prices WITHOUT penalizing existing home owners.

Perhaps an option for bigger instanced rental space is a nice addition. Or, the ability to have other players visit your instanced rental space. The map is a good size and always feels alive. My neighbors in the game are always around... most of the houses have folks using them that I have seen around where I live.

 

[AreYouKidden]

I appreciate a good suggestion as much as the next person - but honestly @Chesapeake1998, you can't think of the many ways that would be abused? The same house would change hands between all their friends 100 times before the day was out

The purpose of taxing players isn't meant to make things unfun - it's to try to get housing back into the hands of active players sooner, to keep the revolving door that is real estate moving quicker. To try to make sure it's active players holding all the land. If taxes is a horrible word, use upkeep - the thought that you don't want to punish players further for earning their homes is great, but in essence, you end up punishing those who didn't start early enough - if you don't find a way to put the lands back into active players hands sooner.

I appreciate that your idea was at least geared towards keeping houses moving faster, and in active players hands, it's just too open for abuse to be something that could realistically be done. I also like the idea of somehow grading a persons activity level by what they do in game, and reducing their IDOC timers even down to a week total, if they aren't active. Like someone who logs in once a month, but never plays isn't considered active. The abuse on that is people will run scripts to make themselves look active - so just need to determine what active means? Does it mean doing societies? Events? PvP? Shrines? Gathering? People play the game in soo many ways, so just need to be careful what's considered active.

 

[Chesapeake1998]

I appreciate a good suggestion as much as the next person - but honestly @Chesapeake1998, you can't think of the many ways that would be abused? The same house would change hands between all their friends 100 times before the day was out

The purpose of taxing players isn't meant to make things unfun - it's to try to get housing back into the hands of active players sooner, to keep the revolving door that is real estate moving quicker. To try to make sure it's active players holding all the land. If taxes is a horrible word, use upkeep - the thought that you don't want to punish players further for earning their homes is great, but in essence, you end up punishing those who didn't start early enough - if you don't find a way to put the lands back into active players hands sooner.

I appreciate that your idea was at least geared towards keeping houses moving faster, and in active players hands, it's just too open for abuse to be something that could realistically be done. I also like the idea of somehow grading a persons activity level by what they do in game, and reducing their IDOC timers even down to a week total, if they aren't active. Like someone who logs in once a month, but never plays isn't considered active. The abuse on that is people will run scripts to make themselves look active - so just need to determine what active means? Does it mean doing societies? Events? PvP? Shrines? Gathering? People play the game in soo many ways, so just need to be careful what's considered active.

I’m a much more active player now - but In about 3 months I’m going to be having my first child. The idea that my hard work pre-child is going to be taken away because I can’t pay for “upkeep” weekly is absurd. Once baby is born, I’m sure my play time will be much more curtailed. The idea I now have to “GRIND” for gold to “upkeep” my house is horrible. In my post I caveated my ideas by saying that it needs to be implemented in a way that doesn’t allow for folks ‘gaming’ the system. That’s the hard part... of course... My attempt was to suggest a different mechanic that is player driven, rather than being forced down from the top.

In summary - yes, my original thoughts can probably be abused as posted in the forum with some minimal thought. My intent is to spur some more creative solutions...

How about this idea...

Let the seller finance the sale to newer players?
New player put down 50% of the house value (or any % that seller is willing to take). Selling player puts the remaining 50% of the house value. Basically - let the selling player underwrite the sale of the house... Selling player - in a sense - issues a mortgage to new player. If the new player fails to make the payment, the house goes back to the seller. In this format... the selling player gets upfront GOLD... and can charge an interest on the remaining amount. If new player has no gold to be taken from their bank, the house automatically goes to the selling player. All items in the house go back to the original selling owner.

I realize that this may be difficult because a seller may not want to wait a year to receive his or her gold. So perhaps it’s simply a payment plan option That can be defined by the two parties. If payment according to the payment plan is not met by designated date, house automatically re-transfers to the seller including all the goods in said house.

You incentivize the seller to offer the loan Somehow. The tax and onus is on the buying player - NOT the original owner or selling person. This also incentivizing active player to make sure to meet his payment plan. This can also allow players to ban together (or a guild) to make said payments. I may not be able to make my payment plan alone, but with 2 or 3 buddies... you can.

@AreYouKidden

 

[AreYouKidden]

I’m a much more active player now - but In about 3 months I’m going to be having my first child. The idea that my hard work pre-child is going to be taken away because I can’t pay for “upkeep” weekly is absurd. Once baby is born, I’m sure my play time will be much more curtailed. The idea I now have to “GRIND” for gold to “upkeep” my house is horrible. @AreYouKidden

I can appreciate the take on this - however dead/inactive houses do nothing for the shard to promote it's long term health and growth, in fact become a deterrent for new players joining if there's no potential for them ever owning housing.

The suggestions that have been made for upkeep and taxes are such minimal amounts, that depending on how egregious your over indulgence is on land, you may actually be paying very little, akin to playing an hour a month. Suggestions have been basically next to nothing for owning a single small house, to taxing you for your second & third house, or increasing upkeep costs based on the footprint of your house. A 30x30 house can block 8 other people from having a little piece of their land themselves - that's the sort of house that if goes inactive, you want to get it back into the hands of others.

I personally have no issue with the housing costs currently - economy is what it is - but do want to see the shard healthy and thriving when you come back from your hiatus bringing a new child into this world. Which is why I'm passionate on the topic. There are also other options to owning a house on the shard, like the inn room rental system, which is a great way to own a little place to decorate and call your own for as long as you can afford it, without having to pay a huge up front fee. I personally believe the overland housing should be in the hands of active players, and support any system that actually encourages people not to hold on to over indulgences of land they aren't using. (even if that means actively pushing them out faster when they've moved on from the game).

 

[Mephilic]

The way I see it the current housing market is just gatekeeping noobs who couldn't benefit from the current inflation of the economy. Realistically most noobs aren't going to be able to afford all these multiple ventures of investment while not having optimized knowledge about the game and even if one is knowledgeable if the grind for basic relevancy in the game is too long then it results in the feeling and awareness of repetition and can result in burnout. Ones investment in a game should allow them to progress beyond a half way point of competition before the feeling of repetition and bottlenecking comes into play. Currently as it stands this housing market mixed with inflation just limits ones access to large portions of content within this game. More experienced players will likely figure out work arounds but players who are entirely new will be in for the quite the struggle. In short I believe that the market makes things too grindy, limits full access to the game, and even limits a players investment into the game as annoying bottlenecks occur. This was a problem on the original UO and on this small of a map it's a even worse problem here. Personally I think there is many options here they could do. Expand upon the Inn system allowing it to be a hub for multiple people as well expanding upon the housing there. Make small modifications throughout the map flattening areas that were barely unacceptable for house placement before and removing a few trees here and there. Loosening the restrictions of placement in regards to land tiles. Increase the number of boat houses available or perhaps add a less placement restricted version. Expanding a landmass somewhere in the ocean a new island with plenty of space. Just getting new space out on the market will increase the supply of houses and lower the demand thus decreasing market prices for the time being.

 

[AreYouKidden]

The way I see it the current housing market is just gatekeeping noobs who couldn't benefit from the current inflation of the economy. Realistically most noobs aren't going to be able to afford all these multiple ventures of investment while not having optimized knowledge about the game and even if one is knowledgeable if the grind for basic relevancy in the game is too long then it results in the feeling and awareness of repetition and can result in burnout. Ones investment in a game should allow them to progress beyond a half way point of competition before the feeling of repetition and bottlenecking comes into play. Currently as it stands this housing market mixed with inflation just limits ones access to large portions of content within this game. More experienced players will likely figure out work arounds but players who are entirely new will be in for the quite the struggle. In short I believe that the market makes things too grindy, limits full access to the game, and even limits a players investment into the game as annoying bottlenecks occur. This was a problem on the original UO and on this small of a map it's a even worse problem here. Personally I think there is many options here they could do. Expand upon the Inn system allowing it to be a hub for multiple people as well expanding upon the housing there. Make small modifications throughout the map flattening areas that were barely unacceptable for house placement before and removing a few trees here and there. Loosening the restrictions of placement in regards to land tiles. Increase the number of boat houses available or perhaps add a less placement restricted version. Expanding a landmass somewhere in the ocean a new island with plenty of space. Just getting new space out on the market will increase the supply of houses and lower the demand thus decreasing market prices for the time being.

Just for clarity, what aspects of the game does not having a house limit you from? I do agree, there's a laundry list of things you need in game that all cost hugely (codices/books, aspect, mastery chains, runebook bless) - I've made suggestions on ways to defer some of those costs so newer players don't need to think about them until they want to really up their end game - but I'm not sure where housing fits into the list? Housing isn't a necessity, and doesn't effect gameplay, it isn't a need - it's a want. It's a quality of life thing as far as I understand it?

One issue with creating land masses for houses, that staff here have brought to us every time it's suggested, is the moment they open up that land, veterans will roll in with all the gold they've already amassed, and eat up that land - larger houses will get placed, and you won't have really addressed the problem at all, which is the quantity of people looking for housing, you'll have just given people an opportunity to get bigger houses.. Many months ago, they dropped about 40 8x8's in without telling anyone, the moment someone noticed the new house spots, they scoured Avadon, ate up most of the new real estate, and started profiting selling it to others - newer players didn't really benefit.. I'm not sure how you get around that with a new land mass - perhaps build it in such a way there's a max size of house in each spot, 10x10's?

 

[HeliumFreak]

solution is simple. Wipe shard at end of the year, make it a big event.

Come back correct this time. 1 account per IP. 1 house per MAH. No multi-boxing in dungeons from launch this time.


Do that and damn, outlands would be UO again because there is nothing "UO" about having 3 accounts, multiboxxing dungeons(which you could do at outlands launch), and having 15 characters.

Terrible idea that will never happen .... next idea anyone?

You know people donate money for prev coins, you just gonna take that all away from them?

People collect rares they have been given out for events since the shard began.. Just going to take them all away as well?

The guys in the house beside mine got prev coins to sell to pay for their house. Gonna take that away from them also?


Theres nothing "UO" about having 3 accounts? Cause in the late 90s i had 3 UO accounts. Seems pretty UO to me.

 

[Chucklez]

I know they can't limit the housing based on IP but couldn't they put the ability for same IP to enter rentals? The rentals are a great idea but I feel could be better utilized for new players, until they can amass the gold to buy a house. I saw something about a loft idea "a bigger rental" which would be cool but could also hurt the housing market, guess it would really depend on its costs. I mean even if they made it 10k for a loft 1 run through a dungeon a week could easily cover that and then some depending on your build. Could use the visit command and list of rooms you can visit pops up, being logged on accounts with active rentals on the same IP.

 

[AreYouKidden]

Saw a guy post in discord - the idea of an innkeeper for houses, so that players could access their inn rooms - I love this idea personally, we have stablemasters, and dockmasters - the inn keep is really the next step - players could access their inn rooms from a guild home, allowing them to frequent their guild houses more regularly for restocking, and generally getting to see/play with their guild.. It's certainly not a necessity - as players in a guild should be meeting in communal areas already - but I do think it's a great idea, without any drawbacks - players already have very little risk accessing at a town inn.

Also @Chucklez I don't think there is any risk over crashing the housing market with our current population by offering a slightly bigger inn room with 1 more secure in it - at this point it can really only help alleviate some of the stress on newer players who can't afford the housing in an over priced market.