Housing Discussion

[Chesapeake1998]

Hello - I thought I would comment on this. I played UO back in 1998 Chesapeake for many years. Housing was NEVER meant to be easy and never was. Much like the real world, housing is often difficult for many people. It should be that way. I never post on forums, but I thought I should on this specific topic.

I recently started playing Outlands because It promised a real experience with thriving community - so far it has delivered in SPADES. I am new player with a few months of playing. The PVP side is excellent balance with the PVM side. It is literally amazing. You will be PKed from time to time - that’s the name of the game. Through discord you can get some blue folks to come help in defense. Great balance - nothing needed here.

On housing - taxing players with real estate is a horrible idea. It would make it a chore and ’not fun’ for many players. While there are very expensive houses on the server - there are many options in the 1-2m range for 8x8. That may sound like a lot... but it’s really not With some time and effort playing. Again, as it should be. With some time... and effort... and luck... you’ll get some nice drops that add up in $$. I was able to purchase a 8x8 in that price range above and then, I demolished it and placed a larger tower on the same space. It also forces players to work together... perhaps you can incentivize very wealthy players to help younger players with gold so that they can purchase their first home. At the end of the day, it should be a mechanic that allows players to drive... not big brother making it unfun for those that have worked hard to earn their homes. Why not incentivize some house sellers to drop their price for another form of consideration. So... for example. If you sell your house at a discount to another player for a 10-15% tax on the buying players loot going forward On the account? Or I’m willing to sell my home for a discounted price for a “rare“ like item that is granted by game. So... any 8x8 house sold below 1mm will also automatically receive a special rare, ability, etc. This way, you incentivize a seller to drop the price without penalizing him per se. Now you have other incentives for players to reduce housing prices they are wiling to take because they will get something else in return. Of course - nothing that changes in-game mechanics. Special mounts? 1-2% more loot for 6 months in dungeons?

For example: I want to sell an 8x8 prime real estate for $3 Million. I can also sell it for $999k... my reward for selling it at a discount price will be a special mount and 20-30% more gold from monsters for 6 months Or 1 year. Just some thoughts. I think you need to think through how this would impact the broader game, but I think the idea is you need to incentivize lower prices WITHOUT penalizing existing home owners.

Perhaps an option for bigger instanced rental space is a nice addition. Or, the ability to have other players visit your instanced rental space. The map is a good size and always feels alive. My neighbors in the game are always around... most of the houses have folks using them that I have seen around where I live.

 

[AreYouKidden]

I appreciate a good suggestion as much as the next person - but honestly @Chesapeake1998, you can't think of the many ways that would be abused? The same house would change hands between all their friends 100 times before the day was out

The purpose of taxing players isn't meant to make things unfun - it's to try to get housing back into the hands of active players sooner, to keep the revolving door that is real estate moving quicker. To try to make sure it's active players holding all the land. If taxes is a horrible word, use upkeep - the thought that you don't want to punish players further for earning their homes is great, but in essence, you end up punishing those who didn't start early enough - if you don't find a way to put the lands back into active players hands sooner.

I appreciate that your idea was at least geared towards keeping houses moving faster, and in active players hands, it's just too open for abuse to be something that could realistically be done. I also like the idea of somehow grading a persons activity level by what they do in game, and reducing their IDOC timers even down to a week total, if they aren't active. Like someone who logs in once a month, but never plays isn't considered active. The abuse on that is people will run scripts to make themselves look active - so just need to determine what active means? Does it mean doing societies? Events? PvP? Shrines? Gathering? People play the game in soo many ways, so just need to be careful what's considered active.

 

[Chesapeake1998]

I appreciate a good suggestion as much as the next person - but honestly @Chesapeake1998, you can't think of the many ways that would be abused? The same house would change hands between all their friends 100 times before the day was out

The purpose of taxing players isn't meant to make things unfun - it's to try to get housing back into the hands of active players sooner, to keep the revolving door that is real estate moving quicker. To try to make sure it's active players holding all the land. If taxes is a horrible word, use upkeep - the thought that you don't want to punish players further for earning their homes is great, but in essence, you end up punishing those who didn't start early enough - if you don't find a way to put the lands back into active players hands sooner.

I appreciate that your idea was at least geared towards keeping houses moving faster, and in active players hands, it's just too open for abuse to be something that could realistically be done. I also like the idea of somehow grading a persons activity level by what they do in game, and reducing their IDOC timers even down to a week total, if they aren't active. Like someone who logs in once a month, but never plays isn't considered active. The abuse on that is people will run scripts to make themselves look active - so just need to determine what active means? Does it mean doing societies? Events? PvP? Shrines? Gathering? People play the game in soo many ways, so just need to be careful what's considered active.

I’m a much more active player now - but In about 3 months I’m going to be having my first child. The idea that my hard work pre-child is going to be taken away because I can’t pay for “upkeep” weekly is absurd. Once baby is born, I’m sure my play time will be much more curtailed. The idea I now have to “GRIND” for gold to “upkeep” my house is horrible. In my post I caveated my ideas by saying that it needs to be implemented in a way that doesn’t allow for folks ‘gaming’ the system. That’s the hard part... of course... My attempt was to suggest a different mechanic that is player driven, rather than being forced down from the top.

In summary - yes, my original thoughts can probably be abused as posted in the forum with some minimal thought. My intent is to spur some more creative solutions...

How about this idea...

Let the seller finance the sale to newer players?
New player put down 50% of the house value (or any % that seller is willing to take). Selling player puts the remaining 50% of the house value. Basically - let the selling player underwrite the sale of the house... Selling player - in a sense - issues a mortgage to new player. If the new player fails to make the payment, the house goes back to the seller. In this format... the selling player gets upfront GOLD... and can charge an interest on the remaining amount. If new player has no gold to be taken from their bank, the house automatically goes to the selling player. All items in the house go back to the original selling owner.

I realize that this may be difficult because a seller may not want to wait a year to receive his or her gold. So perhaps it’s simply a payment plan option That can be defined by the two parties. If payment according to the payment plan is not met by designated date, house automatically re-transfers to the seller including all the goods in said house.

You incentivize the seller to offer the loan Somehow. The tax and onus is on the buying player - NOT the original owner or selling person. This also incentivizing active player to make sure to meet his payment plan. This can also allow players to ban together (or a guild) to make said payments. I may not be able to make my payment plan alone, but with 2 or 3 buddies... you can.

@AreYouKidden

 

[AreYouKidden]

I’m a much more active player now - but In about 3 months I’m going to be having my first child. The idea that my hard work pre-child is going to be taken away because I can’t pay for “upkeep” weekly is absurd. Once baby is born, I’m sure my play time will be much more curtailed. The idea I now have to “GRIND” for gold to “upkeep” my house is horrible. @AreYouKidden

I can appreciate the take on this - however dead/inactive houses do nothing for the shard to promote it's long term health and growth, in fact become a deterrent for new players joining if there's no potential for them ever owning housing.

The suggestions that have been made for upkeep and taxes are such minimal amounts, that depending on how egregious your over indulgence is on land, you may actually be paying very little, akin to playing an hour a month. Suggestions have been basically next to nothing for owning a single small house, to taxing you for your second & third house, or increasing upkeep costs based on the footprint of your house. A 30x30 house can block 8 other people from having a little piece of their land themselves - that's the sort of house that if goes inactive, you want to get it back into the hands of others.

I personally have no issue with the housing costs currently - economy is what it is - but do want to see the shard healthy and thriving when you come back from your hiatus bringing a new child into this world. Which is why I'm passionate on the topic. There are also other options to owning a house on the shard, like the inn room rental system, which is a great way to own a little place to decorate and call your own for as long as you can afford it, without having to pay a huge up front fee. I personally believe the overland housing should be in the hands of active players, and support any system that actually encourages people not to hold on to over indulgences of land they aren't using. (even if that means actively pushing them out faster when they've moved on from the game).

 

[Mephilic]

The way I see it the current housing market is just gatekeeping noobs who couldn't benefit from the current inflation of the economy. Realistically most noobs aren't going to be able to afford all these multiple ventures of investment while not having optimized knowledge about the game and even if one is knowledgeable if the grind for basic relevancy in the game is too long then it results in the feeling and awareness of repetition and can result in burnout. Ones investment in a game should allow them to progress beyond a half way point of competition before the feeling of repetition and bottlenecking comes into play. Currently as it stands this housing market mixed with inflation just limits ones access to large portions of content within this game. More experienced players will likely figure out work arounds but players who are entirely new will be in for the quite the struggle. In short I believe that the market makes things too grindy, limits full access to the game, and even limits a players investment into the game as annoying bottlenecks occur. This was a problem on the original UO and on this small of a map it's a even worse problem here. Personally I think there is many options here they could do. Expand upon the Inn system allowing it to be a hub for multiple people as well expanding upon the housing there. Make small modifications throughout the map flattening areas that were barely unacceptable for house placement before and removing a few trees here and there. Loosening the restrictions of placement in regards to land tiles. Increase the number of boat houses available or perhaps add a less placement restricted version. Expanding a landmass somewhere in the ocean a new island with plenty of space. Just getting new space out on the market will increase the supply of houses and lower the demand thus decreasing market prices for the time being.

 

[AreYouKidden]

The way I see it the current housing market is just gatekeeping noobs who couldn't benefit from the current inflation of the economy. Realistically most noobs aren't going to be able to afford all these multiple ventures of investment while not having optimized knowledge about the game and even if one is knowledgeable if the grind for basic relevancy in the game is too long then it results in the feeling and awareness of repetition and can result in burnout. Ones investment in a game should allow them to progress beyond a half way point of competition before the feeling of repetition and bottlenecking comes into play. Currently as it stands this housing market mixed with inflation just limits ones access to large portions of content within this game. More experienced players will likely figure out work arounds but players who are entirely new will be in for the quite the struggle. In short I believe that the market makes things too grindy, limits full access to the game, and even limits a players investment into the game as annoying bottlenecks occur. This was a problem on the original UO and on this small of a map it's a even worse problem here. Personally I think there is many options here they could do. Expand upon the Inn system allowing it to be a hub for multiple people as well expanding upon the housing there. Make small modifications throughout the map flattening areas that were barely unacceptable for house placement before and removing a few trees here and there. Loosening the restrictions of placement in regards to land tiles. Increase the number of boat houses available or perhaps add a less placement restricted version. Expanding a landmass somewhere in the ocean a new island with plenty of space. Just getting new space out on the market will increase the supply of houses and lower the demand thus decreasing market prices for the time being.

Just for clarity, what aspects of the game does not having a house limit you from? I do agree, there's a laundry list of things you need in game that all cost hugely (codices/books, aspect, mastery chains, runebook bless) - I've made suggestions on ways to defer some of those costs so newer players don't need to think about them until they want to really up their end game - but I'm not sure where housing fits into the list? Housing isn't a necessity, and doesn't effect gameplay, it isn't a need - it's a want. It's a quality of life thing as far as I understand it?

One issue with creating land masses for houses, that staff here have brought to us every time it's suggested, is the moment they open up that land, veterans will roll in with all the gold they've already amassed, and eat up that land - larger houses will get placed, and you won't have really addressed the problem at all, which is the quantity of people looking for housing, you'll have just given people an opportunity to get bigger houses.. Many months ago, they dropped about 40 8x8's in without telling anyone, the moment someone noticed the new house spots, they scoured Avadon, ate up most of the new real estate, and started profiting selling it to others - newer players didn't really benefit.. I'm not sure how you get around that with a new land mass - perhaps build it in such a way there's a max size of house in each spot, 10x10's?

 

[HeliumFreak]

solution is simple. Wipe shard at end of the year, make it a big event.

Come back correct this time. 1 account per IP. 1 house per MAH. No multi-boxing in dungeons from launch this time.


Do that and damn, outlands would be UO again because there is nothing "UO" about having 3 accounts, multiboxxing dungeons(which you could do at outlands launch), and having 15 characters.

Terrible idea that will never happen .... next idea anyone?

You know people donate money for prev coins, you just gonna take that all away from them?

People collect rares they have been given out for events since the shard began.. Just going to take them all away as well?

The guys in the house beside mine got prev coins to sell to pay for their house. Gonna take that away from them also?


Theres nothing "UO" about having 3 accounts? Cause in the late 90s i had 3 UO accounts. Seems pretty UO to me.

 

[Chucklez]

I know they can't limit the housing based on IP but couldn't they put the ability for same IP to enter rentals? The rentals are a great idea but I feel could be better utilized for new players, until they can amass the gold to buy a house. I saw something about a loft idea "a bigger rental" which would be cool but could also hurt the housing market, guess it would really depend on its costs. I mean even if they made it 10k for a loft 1 run through a dungeon a week could easily cover that and then some depending on your build. Could use the visit command and list of rooms you can visit pops up, being logged on accounts with active rentals on the same IP.

 

[AreYouKidden]

Saw a guy post in discord - the idea of an innkeeper for houses, so that players could access their inn rooms - I love this idea personally, we have stablemasters, and dockmasters - the inn keep is really the next step - players could access their inn rooms from a guild home, allowing them to frequent their guild houses more regularly for restocking, and generally getting to see/play with their guild.. It's certainly not a necessity - as players in a guild should be meeting in communal areas already - but I do think it's a great idea, without any drawbacks - players already have very little risk accessing at a town inn.

Also @Chucklez I don't think there is any risk over crashing the housing market with our current population by offering a slightly bigger inn room with 1 more secure in it - at this point it can really only help alleviate some of the stress on newer players who can't afford the housing in an over priced market.

 

[Chucklez]

Saw a guy post in discord - the idea of an innkeeper for houses, so that players could access their inn rooms - I love this idea personally, we have stablemasters, and dockmasters - the inn keep is really the next step - players could access their inn rooms from a guild home, allowing them to frequent their guild houses more regularly for restocking, and generally getting to see/play with their guild.. It's certainly not a necessity - as players in a guild should be meeting in communal areas already - but I do think it's a great idea, without any drawbacks - players already have very little risk accessing at a town inn.

Also @Chucklez I don't think there is any risk over crashing the housing market with our current population by offering a slightly bigger inn room with 1 more secure in it - at this point it can really only help alleviate some of the stress on newer players who can't afford the housing in an over priced market.

I totally agree, if the market was a living market for houses I could see be a problem but when you have guilds that corner the housing market and driving the crazy high prices, then having this would help newer players. I love the idea of an innkeeper, my guild currently has a tower that we let confirmed members "rent out" meaning they can agree to use x box on that floor and not touch other player's boxes. This of course comes with an agreement that if you put something worth a large sum of gold and another "tenant" steals it the guild isn't on the hook for it. So in essence keep your expensive stuff in your bank still. Still they can deco their floor at their own will until they can get their own place. Also keeps near our guild hall.

 

[Elric]

Maybe an expanded inn system will help "some" people, but these are the people that are truly looking for storage space and a place to have their characters funnel their loot.

Most people, however, want a home out in the world because they want to lock down the cool stuff and ensure that other players know that they have it. They have the house and a bunch of goodies they found or bought. If these things are locked away from view in an inn room off the map, then nobody knows they have this stuff. They play for hours to gather this virtual crap and they can't visually brag about it. It takes all of those hours grinding away in their parents' basement seem like for nothing where they might as well went out and looked for a job because nobody can see what they did that day. The virtual game world of imaginary things must be displayed loud and proud.

 

[Laughing Skull]

Maybe an expanded inn system will help "some" people, but these are the people that are truly looking for storage space and a place to have their characters funnel their loot.

Most people, however, want a home out in the world because they want to lock down the cool stuff and ensure that other players know that they have it. They have the house and a bunch of goodies they found or bought. If these things are locked away from view in an inn room off the map, then nobody knows they have this stuff. They play for hours to gather this virtual crap and they can't visually brag about it. It takes all of those hours grinding away in their parents' basement seem like for nothing where they might as well went out and looked for a job because nobody can see what they did that day. The virtual game world of imaginary things must be displayed loud and proud.

Well hell... now I feel a little silly with my house decorations. Thanks Elric!

Other than that, can't say your wrong. Put multi-rise apartments smack dab in the middle of the busy towns! Let's get an urban vibe going!

 

[Chucklez]

Maybe an expanded inn system will help "some" people, but these are the people that are truly looking for storage space and a place to have their characters funnel their loot.

Most people, however, want a home out in the world because they want to lock down the cool stuff and ensure that other players know that they have it. They have the house and a bunch of goodies they found or bought. If these things are locked away from view in an inn room off the map, then nobody knows they have this stuff. They play for hours to gather this virtual crap and they can't visually brag about it. It takes all of those hours grinding away in their parents' basement seem like for nothing where they might as well went out and looked for a job because nobody can see what they did that day. The virtual game world of imaginary things must be displayed loud and proud.

The whole point isn't that people don't want house in the open world, it's they don't have one or a place to do basic functions until they get one. It's not to substitute having a house, its a temporary filler until they can get a home in the open world. I personally hate instance housing but having something is better than nothing until I can get what I do want.

 

[Elric]

The whole point isn't that...

Using terms like "always" or "never" are absolutes like "the whole point". That isn't the "whole point". Some people have a point of view that they want storage. Others have a point of view that they want to share a space for their characters. Others have a point of view where they want to show off their castle and all of their goodies with everybody that walks by their house. Then there are others beyond that with a different point of view.

 

[AreYouKidden]

Maybe an expanded inn system will help "some" people, but these are the people that are truly looking for storage space and a place to have their characters funnel their loot.

Most people, however, want a home out in the world because they want to lock down the cool stuff and ensure that other players know that they have it. They have the house and a bunch of goodies they found or bought. If these things are locked away from view in an inn room off the map, then nobody knows they have this stuff. They play for hours to gather this virtual crap and they can't visually brag about it. It takes all of those hours grinding away in their parents' basement seem like for nothing where they might as well went out and looked for a job because nobody can see what they did that day. The virtual game world of imaginary things must be displayed loud and proud.

And yet 90% of those people looking to show off all their crap, have private homes, not open to the public, so no one can see it.. I agree - there's a large portion of the population who want to be out in the world - but I think you'd be surprised to find out how much of that population wants to be out in the world, just so they have ease of storage, and ways to transfer goods between characters, and don't give a lick about decorating, or showing off their stuff. I personally live out of a public house, because I decorate, and want people to see the time and energy put into it.

I don't mind instanced housing - though I feel that it takes away a big piece of what makes UO great, and that's the players around you, both good and bad.. I still would love to see communal instanced housing - you go into your inn room, into a common area, that has 10 rooms around it - people you can run into at all times..

I'm curious what your solution is to the housing "issues" Elric - are you pro land expansion? pro taxes/upkeep? What is your stance on fixing things?

 

[Elric]

I already stated it pages ago. Allow for houses to be destroyed by a mass of players and then create the much wanted PVP conflict that player here crave as you have to beg other players to help defend your little wagon. You know, to give that feeling of dread lurking around every corner. If this server wants to be T2A based and feel like the old days, then it is time to bring back the house keys. Let them be stealable again. Bring back some of that retro-ness that apparently went away with Trammel and thus ruined UO. Thieves here are bored? Make those house doors pickable! Many players love the housing situation though. Only people without houses complain.

 

[paradise of perfection]

fug

 

[Owyn]

fug

Lucky for you, one extra click and you can do whatever you want.

 

[Mister Snuggles]

What would you suggest to make Inn Rentals more meaningful? There are currently 250 rooms rented, and we'd like to improve and expand the system as it's already been a huge success.

-While I think the Inn System is a relative success it still doesn't address the fact that you don't "own" and that it is still highly limited with a max of 4 secures. This is also compounded with only being able to access the inn in specific places or knowing someone who spent 4m gold (a huge amount) on a steward and pricing on 8x8's at 2m+.
-I know we are a few years into the server launching, but I believe the whole 3 houses per IP needs to be revisited. I know many people who hold 6+ houses (MHA using their wife or children that don't play) and haven't actively played on the shard in many, many months. They simply log in once a month to make sure their houses don't decay and hold up multiple house locations.

My suggestion would be this:
-Give a 3-month notice to the shard that the restrictions for housing will be 1 house per IP - This will allow plenty of time to allow people to shift housing around as well as start driving housing prices down as people will sell or drop their unused or small houses used to block others from upgrading plots.
** This also helps address the IDOC issues where one group land grabs everything (not sure if this still happens since the IDOC changes) **
-Keep the option to rent the inn rooms, but also make them purchasable and secures able to be upgraded if you do purchase. Maybe make "tiles" that can be purchased and put in a house that teleport you to the inn room. - This will allow people to put a steward or tiles in their house and essentially use the inn system as a basement that is accessible by whoever you want. **Think of different types of rooms that serve a purpose like a "dining room" or a "stable". This would allow for some roleplaying to happen and customization. Personally, I would love to have an instanced stable-looking area that I could have my pets sitting around in or a dining room or a great room with a big fireplace.
-Give notice that violators of the 1 house per IP rule will have their largest house or house with the most assets seized and dropped on the first offense and the second offense is a permaban of all accounts.
-Make an expensive (4m+) purchasable item that can be put in a house that you can recall to - Everyone wants courtyard access but the plots are huge which limits this. This would allow everyone to get this type of access even in a small house but at a cost that puts it towards mid/end game availability.
-Guilds will need to be evaluated but I imagine it wouldn't be difficult to know what guilds have a custom house and allow their leader to hold the guild house + a personal house.

Some other suggestions:
-Put in a "minimum activity" requirement for owning a home. This could be done in the form of having to kill, craft, harvest, x amount of whatever in x amount of time - This would make it so people who are not actively playing on the shard and just holding up housing slots would either have to participate on the shard or lose their house. Items from the house could be put into their bank but the house(s) goes *poof*. Think of something like 50k gold farmed in 4 weeks as farming 50k takes like an hour and 4 weeks is PLENTY of time to deal with any RL issues that come up.
**This could be tied in by giving the house a system like the boss summons farming for guilds. Hit 50k in 4 weeks and hit a "summon" button on your house gump to refresh your activity for the next 4 weeks.

-Get frigging rid of caravans except in specified locations (gypsy camps, moon gates, near water, ???) or make their cost prohibitive as they are cancer and used for trolling in 9/10 situations.

 

[HeliumFreak]

-Give notice that violators of the 1 house per IP rule will have their largest house or house with the most assets seized and dropped on the first offense and the second offense is a permaban of all accounts.
-Make an expensive (4m+) purchasable item that can be put in a house that you can recall to - Everyone wants courtyard access but the plots are huge which limits this. This would allow everyone to get this type of access even in a small house but at a cost that puts it towards mid/end game availability.

Well idea 1 i think is too far gone at this point, maybe at the start it should of been done but now its probably too late. You also have to take into account what if you have a 6 secure house for example. You have the opportunity to upgrade to a larger house. How do you get your stuff from 1 house to another without owning both houses at the same time. You could rely on the good will of others, but not many people have space in their house for a whole other house to be placed in while you move. Then theres the probably on someone screwing you over. Maybe you spread your 6 secures across 6 (or more) people ? Total hassle, there should at least be a 1 week window where you can own 2 houses to facilitate moving.

But then theres the issue of, what if u cant sell the house in a weeks time, you cant just drop it if your actively trying to sell it.

Idea 2. I like this idea... But 4 mill? Seems abit steep. Spend 4 mill... or... just walk 3 tiles into your house in under 1 second.

I do think there should be a way to contact house owners though, i see so many empty houses, they are everywhere, but there is no way to locate who the owner is. Either unsolicited offers, or the ability to leave a note on a house that the owner will receive next time they refresh the property. In the same way when there is an update or when an admin sends you a message there is a popup window that you have to click to read.

Something along those lines should be allowed.

If they add unsolicited offers it should be on by default, and you should have to opt out, otherwise people who are just logging in to refresh probably have no idea of the current server patches and would never know to turn it on. But people who are active will know to turn it off .